No Fuel Water Pumps

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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby Prajna » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:22 am

And, sadly, these pumps are 'lossy', so you won't be able to regenerate power with them in a closed loop system. They work by abstracting a small amount of energy from a water flow; far more water flows through the pump than is pumped by it.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby holy vehm » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:36 am

Prajna wrote:And, sadly, these pumps are 'lossy', so you won't be able to regenerate power with them in a closed loop system. They work by abstracting a small amount of energy from a water flow; far more water flows through the pump than is pumped by it.



Thats a shame, oh well, the search continues :thinks:

Another question if i may, if you had say a 40 ltr header tank 30 foot up and allowed the water to fall to the ground through ever decreasing pipe sizes, would the water become like a jet as it passed through the final nozzel at the end.
If it does, what causes that, is it the weight of the water in the header tank/the distance it drops/the ever decreasing pipe thickness the water flows down or is it all of these.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby Prajna » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:17 am

You don't need ever decreasing pipe sizes. There is a compromise between flow and pressure. As the diameter of the pipe decreases the friction increases, so the flow reduces.

The head provides a particular pressure, which if sent down a large diameter pipe will produce a short stream or fountain because that pressure is spread across a large cross-sectional area. If sent down a small diameter pipe that same pressure is concentrated over a smaller area and therefore the force with which it exits the pipe is increased. The force is greater but so too are the losses.

Hope that is clear enough and answers your question. If not then ask again and I'll find a link that explains it more lucidly.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby holy vehm » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:35 am

I should have attended science classes at school, i understand the concepts but the application is lost on me.

So is the pressure created by the header tank the main factor here, the higher and larger the more pressure.

I watched a while ago a program where two guys went up a mountain with rolls of hose pipe, they then placed the hose in a stream and connected the hoses together all the way back down the mountain.
The stream filled up the hoses and when they turned it on, the water was like a jet coming out. The stream itself wasnt a large one or even flowing that fast.

They then aimed the hose at a small turbine which spun very fast which in turn created a decent amount of power.

So im thinking, how do you replicate that without a mountain and a stream.
Then, the next step is to find a way of getting the water back to the header tank without using any power, creating a closed loop type system.

I suspect however im searching for the holy grail here, oh well, if your going to think big, might as well make it biggest.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby Prajna » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:24 am

holy vehm wrote:So is the pressure created by the header tank the main factor here, the higher and larger the more pressure.


Yup

[quote="holy vehm"I watched a while ago a program where two guys went up a mountain with rolls of hose pipe, they then placed the hose in a stream and connected the hoses together all the way back down the mountain.
The stream filled up the hoses and when they turned it on, the water was like a jet coming out. The stream itself wasnt a large one or even flowing that fast.

They then aimed the hose at a small turbine which spun very fast which in turn created a decent amount of power.[/quote]


Sure, the power is from the head - which is actually the weight of water in the hose.

[quote="holy vehm"So im thinking, how do you replicate that without a mountain and a stream.
Then, the next step is to find a way of getting the water back to the header tank without using any power, creating a closed loop type system.

I suspect however im searching for the holy grail here, oh well, if your going to think big, might as well make it biggest.[/quote]


Sadly, you are and it is a path well trod. You can employ a stream with very little drop if you use a vertical axis turbine driven by a vortex. Here is some info about that: http://www.zotloeterer.com/our_company/water_vortex_engineering/water_vortex_power_plant.php
But you still need some water flow, just you don't need the same kind of drop that you would for a conventional waterwheel.

I became very excited about the idea of using buoyancy to pump water back up to run a generator but nature seems to have this wonderful balance built into it and all forces in the universe seem to be related: gravitation = buoyancy = magnetism = electrical, etc. so there really is no way to create an imbalance in a system that can be taken advantage of. Well not that I can see, and I did study free energy stuff very intensively for several years.

Having said that, I still retain a little blind optimism: there is certainly more to cold fusion than the scam it is made out to be; there have been respectable scientists in the past - Tesla, Leedskillen and others - who have demonstrated machines that appear to be free energy and there appear to be many things, like solar, that if we put the same effort into developing that we have been spending on harming each other and the plant we would have nearly endless cheap energy.

There is a great deal of bullshit regarding free energy and most of it does require a reasonable understanding of science or at minimum a scientific method in order to distinguish the possible from the hype. You can end up following a lot of seemingly promising and logical seeming ideas only to run up against a fatal flaw that has been overlooked.

Here is something that I have been meaning to play with. It is based on a design that my great uncle came up with, I published it on overunity.com several years ago and it seems someone has built it. I've not had the time or equipment to test it myself but this model certainly appears to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ZgVvjvmGk&feature=related

Oh dear, seems they have deleted it. I knew I should have saved a copy. Search http://overunity.com/ forum for "Buddle reciprocating" and you might find my post.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby holy vehm » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:51 am

Thanks for that prajna,

The first link to the vortex turbine looks interesting, its a shame its in austria.
I could be wrong in my example here but to me its basically a plug hole in the bath with a turbine in the middle.
I think you could make a smaller version in the garden.

As for the closed loop system, all you can do at this point i think is transfer some of the power generated to power a pump, but as in the vortex turbine it doesnt need to go straight up to a great height.

Is torque the amount of energy required to stop the turbine from spinning, or more precisely the prop shaft?
Im thinking that the more torque, the bigger the blades, the more electricity you generate.
I suppose care is needed in deciding what materials to make the blades out of. Something strong yet lightweight. Steel is strong yet heavy and ally is weaker yet light.

Much to ponder on.

The unity site is playing up, i have registered to join but i dont think it went through, will try again later.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby Prajna » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:21 pm

Yes, torque is turning force. And yes, it is basically a plug-hole (with a chute to encourage it to create a vortex) with a turbine sat in the vortex. Yes, with more flow and a bigger turbine to take advantage of it there will be more power.

Another possibility is to use a reaction turbine on a vertical axis, or perhaps a combination of both systems.

The blades/turbine doesn't need to be particularly lightweight. The weight only really affects momentum - how quick it is to start up/slow down. Since it will be running continuously (we hope) that doesn't really come into play. I would have thought stainless would be pretty ideal but many materials would be fine, so long as they are rigid.

OU should let you on eventually. You can browse it without registering but don't get to see images and attachments, I think (but you will want to look at the diagram I posted of the Buddle machine, so will need to be registered for that). I haven't been over there for a while.

Also, if you search for me in the gravity section you should find a whole heap of stuff on the buoyancy idea, along with my final conclusion that it won't work and why.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby ArturoDekko » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:19 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&feature=related This claims to be 1.7 over unity. If you drove this with your water turbine and used the steam to drive another turbine ... ???? 1.7 x 1.7 x 1.7 ... :) You could generate enough energy to pump the water back up again and have energy left over.

... or, buy a heat exchanger for £600 that uses 1kw to extract 3kw of heat from the air, then use that heated air plus the 3kw cooler air that is normally pumped back out to give you a 6kw heat differential to run a sterling engine to generate electricity to run the heat exchanger plus some left over :)
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby huntingross » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:06 pm

As a ready reckoner

1 Bar = 14 psi = 10 m head of water (measured vertically)

Pressure (p) = Force (f) / Area (a)

Simplistically (discount leakage at the sides) a close fitting weight inside a sleeve connected via a pipe to another sleeve and weight would be in balance if :

10 (f) / 10 (a) = 1 (p) = 1 (f) / 1 (a)

So a bigger weight would be held up by a smaller weight because the pressure is equal.
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Re: No Fuel Water Pumps

Postby holy vehm » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:25 pm

huntingross wrote:As a ready reckoner

1 Bar = 14 psi = 10 m head of water (measured vertically)

Pressure (p) = Force (f) / Area (a)

Simplistically (discount leakage at the sides) a close fitting weight inside a sleeve connected via a pipe to another sleeve and weight would be in balance if :

10 (f) / 10 (a) = 1 (p) = 1 (f) / 1 (a)

So a bigger weight would be held up by a smaller weight because the pressure is equal.



You see, this is where it loses me. I know it means something important but i dont know what :grin:
I will just stick to trial and error.
If it works then great, if it doesnt, something went wrong.
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