Chris's Gym Dealings

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Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby cjwood555 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:00 pm

Hi All,

The story is this: had a gym membership, cancelled it, got confirmation through....then 2 months later they call up saying we owe them another months worth of fees each (my gf and I) as 'cancellation fees' and to 'see the t&cs'. Now, it was only £76 but a) I'm skint, b) they're not and c) I felt mislead, so I told them I wouldn't pay. A few weeks later along came an invoice:

Monday, 09 November 2009

Ref: Overdue Amounts
WITHOUT PREJUDICE OR LIMITATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. NON ASSUMPSIT.

Dear xxxxxxx,

As previously discussed on the telephone, we specifically asked what the cancellation terms were before taking up membership. It was a female member of staff, the name of whom we are not sure, who informed us that the only requirement was one month’s notice.

Whilst we accept that the written terms and conditions do offer clarification on this point, we do feel mislead in this respect.

Furthermore, the principal reason for cancellation was that very soon after us commencing our membership you saw fit to reduce the weekend evening opening ours. Due to us having a young child, xxx working variable hours in the week and Chris starting a new business and thus working many and varied hours, we found that the reduced opening hours made it much harder to use the facilities we were paying for.

For these reasons we dispute the above referenced invoices.

Yours faithfully,


Had a reply from them (final demand) so:

Friday, 27 November 2009

Ref: Overdue Amounts
WITHOUT PREJUDICE OR LIMITATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. NON ASSUMPSIT.

Dear xxxxx,

We write in reference to your letter dated 24-Nov-2009, in which you threaten legal action to recover the alleged debt of £38 per account.
Please be reminded that in our previous letter, dated 9-Nov-2009, we declared that we DISPUTE the referenced invoices/accounts.

We would like to refer you to the Office of Fair Trading’s ‘Debt Collection Guidelines’

Section 2.8.k
‘Examples of unfair practices are as follows: ….
…not ceasing debt collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or dispute debt.”

Section 2.6.h
‘Examples of unfair practices are as follows: ….
… ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.”

Section 2.8.i
‘Examples of unfair practices are as follows: ….
…failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued.”

We consider your letter to be in breach of these guidelines:
• You have not responded to our letter or made any other attempt to investigate or settle the dispute.
• You have sent further demands whilst the account is still in dispute.

Kindly be advised that until a satisfactory response to our previous letter is received these accounts shall remain formally in dispute and no enforcement action shall be permitted nor tolerated.

Please confirm in writing that your threat and demand are withdrawn pending a resolution of this dispute with seven (7) days. Failure to do so will result in a formal complaint being made to OFT.

Yours faithfully,


I subsequently had a letter from them asking for payment again, but from head-office rather than the gym. So I gave the lady a call and explained that the account was in dispute etc etc. Apparently they had replied to our dispute, but we never received the letter. She emailed a copy over and, suffice it to say, the response was not satisfactory or substantiated. So:

Wednesday, 23 December 2009

Ref: Overdue Amounts

NOTICE OF CONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE.

Dear Sir/Madam,

With reference to your ‘Final Demand Before Court Proceedings’, dated 21st December 2009, please be informed that we conditionally accept your demand upon proof of claim, which may be substantiated by provision of the following:

• Proof of claim that there exists a valid and lawful contract between and duly signed by both parties;
• Proof of claim that xxxxx Leisure has properly performed its obligations under such a contract and that non-performance is not a legitimate reason for cancellation/rescission;
• Proof of claim that xxxxx Leisure has properly investigated our dispute dated 9-November-2009 and drawn and fair and lawful conclusion;
• Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure did not misrepresent a term of such a contract by telling us that cancellation was subject only to one (1) month’s notice;
• Proof of claim that this misrepresentation is not grounds for rescission;

These proofs are requested lawfully and must be provided within 14 days excluding statutory holidays i.e. by 9th January 2010. Failure to provide the required proofs of claim will confirm the assumption that the alleged debt is invalid, non-existent and/or unlawful and will be subject to irrevocable, permanent and lawful ESTOPPEL BY AQUIESCENCE.

We fully intend to pay the alleged debt on condition that the claim is substantiated as per the above.

Please note that by accepting subject to lawfully requested substantiation we have removed controversy and as such you no longer have ultimate recourse in a court of law.

Without malice or mischeif, in sincerity and honour,


To their credit, they responded by sending copies of our application forms and the t&cs. My response was:

Tuesday, 12 January 2010

Ref: Overdue Amounts

NOTICE OF DISHONOUR AND OPPORTUNITY TO CURE

Dear ‘Credit Control’,

Thank you for responding to my Notice of Conditional Acceptance within the required time-frame.

In my ‘Notice of Conditional Acceptance’, dated 23-December-2009, I requested the following proofs of claim:

1. Proof of claim that there exists a valid and lawful contract between and duly signed by both parties;
2. Proof of claim that xxxxx Leisure has properly performed its obligations under such a contract and that non-performance is not a legitimate reason for cancellation/rescission;
3. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure has properly investigated our dispute dated 9-November-2009 and drawn and fair and lawful conclusion;
4. Proof of claim that xxxxx Leisure did not misrepresent a term of such a contract by telling us that cancellation was subject only to one (1) month’s notice;
5. Proof of claim that this misrepresentation is not grounds for rescission;

Notwithstanding the fact that the copies of contracts you have provided only show signatures of the customer and not of a representative of xxxxx Leisure; you have failed to answer points 2 through 5 in entirety. Your inclusion no 2 (letter from Simon James dated 9-November-2009) may well be intended to answer some of these points, however no proof is given that opening hours were not reduced and no mention at all is made of the matter of misrepresentation.

You have not yet provided proof of claim as requested previously and itemised above – specifically points 4 and 5. As such the ‘contract’ may be considered to have been signed subject to a misrepresentation of its terms; making it subject to immediate rescission.

In the case that you rebut this assertion, the clause (2) of your terms that you quoted states:

“A SINGLE cancellation fee equivalent to 2 monthly payments will be required”.

We wrote to cancel our memberships on 23-August-2009. I enclose a copy of that letter. xxx and I both received notes from the centre confirming that our membership would be cancelled; and that we were ‘welcome to use the facilities until the 30/09/09’ (paraphrased).

As such, your Opportunity to Cure includes this demand for:

6. Proof of claim that xxxx and xxxx did not request confirmation of all cancellation charges;
7. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure’s own ‘Conditions of Use’ do not require the payment of a SINGLE cancellation fee;
8. Proof of claim that ‘a single cancellation fee’ was not paid for each of the accounts of Chris Wood and xxxx, by 2 direct-debits from Chris Wood’s bank account on 04-September-2009;
9. Proof of claim that, notwithstanding the amount of the aforementioned cancellation fee, xxxxx Leisure is in breach of its own ‘Conditions of Use’ by demanding a second cancellation fee for each account.

Now, because I am reasonable and honourable, I am willing to give you one last chance to provide these proofs before claiming and securing permanent and irrevocable estoppel. And since you were so kind as to give me seven (7) days to respond, I shall extend you the same courtesy.


NOTICE OF POTENTIAL CHARGES

In all honesty, I am getting a little bored of you wasting my time trying to enforce an alleged debt that, in my view, at best does not exist and at worst might be fraudulent.

Accordingly, please be advised that following tariff of charges shall apply in respect of any correspondence received that does not offer COMPLETE, VALID and LAWFUL proofs of claim as honourably and lawfully requested:

Per letter received £250
Per ‘demand’ received £500
Per court summons £100 per hour of my time
+ Expenses at prime-cost + 10%

Payment terms shall be seven (7) days. In case of late payment a penalty charge shall apply of 3x the principal. Remittance shall be accepted by cheque or cash, sent to the above address and made payable to Chris Wood.

If you do not agree with these LAWFUL terms then please consider the account closed.

I refer you to your ‘Conditions of Use’, which you seem fond of:

“19. xxxx Leisure reserve the right to adjust or amend the terms and conditions as necessary without prior notice…
20. We reserve the right to cancel a membership if these conditions are not adhered to.”

And the legal maxim:

“All are equal before the law”

Your tacit agreement (by acquiescence) to the above tariff of charges shall be procured if no response is received within three (3) days; and shall be lawfully subject to permanent and irrevocable estoppel. Perhaps three days isn’t very generous, but it is lawful and thus I remain in honour.

In sincerity and honour,


No response came back so:

Monday, 25 January 2010

Your Ref: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

NOTICE OF DISHONOUR and NOTICE OF ESTOPPEL

Dear ‘Credit Control’,

On 12th January I sent you a Notice of Dishonour and Opportunity to Cure and allowed you 7 days to respond with ALL requested proofs of claim, itemised hereunder:

1. Proof of claim that there exists a valid and lawful contract between and duly signed by both parties;
2. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure has properly performed its obligations under such a contract and that non-performance is not a legitimate reason for cancellation/rescission;
3. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure has properly investigated our dispute dated 9-November-2009 and drawn and fair and lawful conclusion;
4. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure did not misrepresent a term of such a contract by telling us that cancellation was subject only to one (1) month’s notice;
5. Proof of claim that this misrepresentation is not grounds for rescission;
6. Proof of claim that Chris Wood and xxxx did not request confirmation of all cancellation charges;
7. Proof of claim that xxxx Leisure’s own ‘Conditions of Use’ do not require the payment of a SINGLE cancellation fee;
8. Proof of claim that ‘a single cancellation fee’ was not paid for each of the accounts of Chris Wood and xxxx, by 2 direct-debits from Chris Wood’s bank account on 04-September-2009;
9. Proof of claim that, notwithstanding the amount of the aforementioned cancellation fee, xxxx Leisure is in breach of its own ‘Conditions of Use’ by demanding a second cancellation fee for each account.

You have not responded in substance to any of the above points within the allowed period and have therefore agreed that:

1. Your claim is unjustifiable both contractually and legally;
2. The two accounts were legitimately settled by the payment of two separate ‘single cancellation fees’; and
3. All purported contractual obligations have therefore been fulfilled;

And upon that agreement I hereby claim lawful, permanent and irrevocable ESTOPPEL.

I therefore view your claim as opportunistic and vexatious with no basis in contract or ethical business practices. You have been given ample opportunity to properly justify your claim and have neglected to do so. Your time is up and your silent agreement shall forever stand as OUR TRUTH and OUR LAW.

Please be advised that any further correspondence shall be REFUSED FOR CAUSE for reason of no contract and may be viewed as harassment.

Go away.

Without malice or mischief, in sincerity and honour,


This seemed to fall into the envelope too - note how Without Prejudice was used by the author to his/her benefit:

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

On a personal note, I question WHY xxx are investing quite so much time in a claim for £76? We hadn’t used the facilities during the cancellation period (as your security system records may well show) and as such you haven’t even suffered a tangible loss. Do you regularly write to randomly-selected members of the public saying “we know you haven’t been to our gym and you’re not a member, but you owe us £38 anyway”?

Given that we feel misled in the matter and felt that we had acted honourably, all this has done is generate a lot of ill-feeling.
Had xxx taken a more reasonable approach to this matter, we may have considered re-joining your facility at some point, or even recommending it to friends. I can promise you that neither is a possibility now.

Good times.


As yet, I've heard nothing more. They might try taking me to court, in which case it shall be fun for all!

Regards,
Chris
"The purpose of life, is a life of purpose"
cjwood555
 
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:10 pm
Location: Solihull

Re: Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby SharpElk » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:23 pm

Nice one Chris - go get em!
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Re: Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby Jim » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:36 pm

You have quite a way with words, Chris. Respect.

:peace:

J
All rights reserved, all wrongs reversed.
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Re: Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby cjwood555 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Thanks Guys! :D

I'll admit, I started this argument before I knew anything about common law and all things freeman. In fact it was this dispute that got me googling and landed me on this site - on the 'Robin Hoody' thread actually!

Chris
"The purpose of life, is a life of purpose"
cjwood555
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:10 pm
Location: Solihull

Re: Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby cjwood555 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:45 pm

Just to update, haven't heard anything from them since that last letter :)

Chris
"The purpose of life, is a life of purpose"
cjwood555
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:10 pm
Location: Solihull

Re: Chris's Gym Dealings

Postby iknowmyrights » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:07 pm

Great Reading Chris!

I shall be doing the same, and is it ok to copy some of your wording? Its fantastic!
I am in a very similar position.

Clever stuff!!

Peace
"Focus on where you want to go, not on what you fear.
As it is your decisions, and not your conditions, that determine your destiny."
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