Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:15 pm

I have ongoing correspondence with IPFAS who are demanding a penalty fare from my wife. I have been writing the letters on her behalf and with her permission and oversight.

Travelling from Malvern Link to Worcester, one stop, she got on without ticket. She intended to pay the conductor and had the correct cash/change to do so.

She needed a return ticket: the difference between a return and a single is 50p.

The train had no conductor, he had been relieved of his duty and replaced by three revenue protection officers with London Midland uniforms on. My wife was asked for her name, address and signature under threat of having the police called and she was made to sign the penalty notice. She refused to give any money over.

Upon arrival at Worcester, she purchased her return ticket (from Malvern to Worcester and back), as normal if there has not been a conductor on the train and she missed the ticket office (either by being in a rush to catch the train, or from the office being closed).

Having read Veronica's book three or four times now, I decided to pluck up my courage and... rebel.

Because I am new on this forum I would like to ask first if my story is relevant and whether it might help others to see my correspondence and if it has been posted in the right place on the forum. I can post links to pdf docs on my host. I am at a point where I must make what should be a final reply and would love to hear others opinions or encouragement. This is all a bit more excitement than I am used to.
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby MikeThomas » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:31 pm

So........ where's the loss the train company 'allegedly' claim. If your wife bought a return ticket then she has completed her contract and the actions of the train company are vexatious.

Is it her fault that there was no conductor to issue a ticket? Why didn't she pay the gestapo?

BTW: The penalty notice was signed under protest & duress. Remember that. It's important. And I hope you've kept the ticket!

It would also help if you could elaborate on the story. More info = more help.
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby huntingross » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:33 pm

joel_marks wrote:I decided to pluck up my courage and... rebel


Welcome "rebel", glad to see you are seeking a "bit more excitement than you are used to".....let us know how you get on, and posting up your experience helps others pluck up the courage also.
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:45 am

Hi, huntingross and MikeThomas,

thanks for your encouragement. IPFAS really are a bunch of bullies enforcing a protection racket. Someone should challenge them in the courts and get their legislation overturned. Not me sadly. But I'm doing what I can.

I started by reading Veronica's book again, I read it a couple of times last year, its taking a long time to sink in and sort itself out in my mind. I tried the first letter by myself:

http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/01-response-10_05_2011.pdf

There was no reply to this letter.
On going back to Veronica's book again, I realised I was potentially trying to fight the wrong battle.
When I received the inevitable bullying letter from their preferred 'debt recovery agents' (RPSS) I looked to the templates provided on this site.

Sent to RPSS:
http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/02-request_to_cease_harrasment.pdf
Sent to IPFAS along with their letter to me (I didnt bother to copy it):
http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/02-Second_response_to_IPFAS_using_fmotl_template.pdf

Here is the letter I received in reply (I apologise this pdf is rather large and I was not able to make it smaller):
http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/03-Reply_from_IPFAS-coordinator.pdf

I notice some interesting things about the reply sent by the IPFAS coordinator:
    1. It was sent by second class post, which as far as I recall means in the view of a court that delivery has not been 'guaranteed'.
    2. It was sent to my legal-fiction person.
    3. It does not respond in substance to any of the requests for clarification in the previous letter.
    4. It does not make sense or follow its own internal logic:

I have not asked IPFAS to appeal my fare because I do not believe that owe them anything...

I have not presented rebuttal evidence (why is she talking about it?)...she goes on to say "As such your claim for £105.50 is rejected..."
- Her argument does not make sense: rebuttal evidence has nothing to do with my claim against them. My claim is based on an un-rebutted contract founded on the principle that it is costing me time and money to communicate with them and I have made it clear that is chargeable. No letter was received in disagreement to this contract.

Regarding my claim against them... I dont really want their money, Im not remotely interested - I merely wanted to make a point that if they can charge me arbitrarily, then my legal fiction person can charge them also. I know I am on very shaky law/legal ground as I do not yet have a concise understanding of contract or business law/statute.

I received today a further letter from RPSS despite my (unanswered) Notice to Cease Harassment, with strongly worded threats that are in contravention of Section 21 of the Theft Act 1968 "making an unwarranted demand for gain with menaces"...
http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/03-Further_letter_from_RPSS.pdf
I still find this letter intimidating. I have no desire to go to court or be posted letters by the court and like all of us I have much better things to do with my time!

I would like to ask the community for advice as to what to do next. I believe I can now send a final conclusive template letter to IPFAS. Will the intimidation stop at any point? Or will I have to call their bluff and see them in court? Just how hawkish are IPFAS...
Am I doing the right thing here?
Thanks again everyone :grin:
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Well here goes. I have sent what I hope to be a final letter to IPFAS.

http://www.marks-goloenko.com/fmotl/04-Reply_to_IPFAS,%20final.pdf

It informs them that they have abandoned all claims against me.

If anyone has any advice or feedback about the letters I am writing I would love to hear it. I am new to all this and am unsure about almost everything!

-thanks, all !
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby huntingross » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:26 pm

It all looks good, you have made your position perfectly clear....
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:52 pm

UPDATE
-------------

I have had no reply from IPFAS in some weeks now.
It looks as if the matter is closed and I have succeeded :clap: Thanks to all for the moral support!

I will modify this post if I recieve any more threatening mail, so this thread will remain up to date.
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby greg » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:55 pm

joel_marks wrote:Upon arrival at Worcester, she purchased her return ticket (from Malvern to Worcester and back), as normal if there has not been a conductor on the train


Do you still have the ticket?
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:09 pm

greg wrote:
joel_marks wrote:Upon arrival at Worcester, she purchased her return ticket (from Malvern to Worcester and back), as normal if there has not been a conductor on the train


Do you still have the ticket?


No, I have thrown everything away now.

I have had no further contact from IPFAS and so I think we can regard the matter as being closed. IPFAS IS DEFEATED.
Thanks to all for your support. This incident has given me great hope for the little people winning against abusive corporations.
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Re: Penalty Fare, IPFAS, London Midland Trains

Postby joel_marks » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:15 pm

Ugghh, I guess I should not have thrown everything away.

I just got a court summons today for the 22nd of December :no:


Its the normal stuff, same accusations but now asking for £110 court costs.

Interestingly the wording is:
The fare avoided is £4.30 and compensation of this amount is claimed together with the sum of £110 towards prosecution costs.


...so they appear to have dropped the £20 fine and the escalation of this fine to £40 for "administration costs".

Another point to note is that the IPFAS revenue protection officer in Portsmouth has said in her statement that it is her honest belief that having no ticket shows an INTENT not to pay. This is not true as an offer to pay in cash was made in writing to that office. This puts her at risk for making a statement to the court which she knows to be dishonest.

They have included in the court summons my correspondence to them in full including the copy of the return ticket I purchased at the ticket office on immediately disembarking the train.

-----------------------------------

I have written back to both IPFAS and the courts.

To IPFAS I have sent a postal order for £4.30 as a goodwill gesture that 'does not imply liability or admission of guilt'. I have made it clear to them I will be fighting them in the courts.

To the court I have pointed out that the £4.30 in question has already been covered by the purchase of a return ticket and the conditional offer that I sent IPFAS and now also the postal order. I have requested that the court throw the case out, but if not I have requested that both the revenue protection officers that submitted statements come to court so I can question them.

I will post the letters I sent here when I have a moment. I await the courts response.
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