PENALTY FARE

Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Arten » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:38 pm

Thats what im saying, people who have refused to give details have found a policeman waiting for them at the destination. SO, then what?

My advice stick to your guns, and come on guys, really this is so simple a child could do it. Know your Rights that means a little reading and you won't ever be fleeced again.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby huntingross » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:57 pm

I was hoping to have read this before I wrote it.....therefore negating the need.

@ gepisar

Regardless of the contract issues.....you are on their private property.....proven by which side of the barrier you stand.

The doorman holds the door open for you as you pass through, you smile and say thank you.....he replies.....It's ok sir, you pay to get out.

With regard to the giving of details, agree completely with all that has been said.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Farmer » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:00 pm

Excellent.
If you're scared of 'them' poisoning 'us' with some shit then maybe you haven't noticed the shit they are already poisoning us with.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby freemycatfish » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:07 pm

OK. I am about to enter into a fight concerning not having a ticket on a train. I have been doing some research and I have discovered a few things but if anyone has advice that would help, I would love to hear it.

First some light relief.

I found this and it made me laugh for all kinds of reasons: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23665640-dont-pay-rail-fines-says-ken-livingstone-who-travelled-without-a-ticket.do

My objection to paying the "fine" imposed by a suit working for the railway company center around the following facts and ideas.

1. There are ticket offices inside the barriers at London Bridge station. This means they you can purchase a ticket before trying to exit the station through the barriers. Yet, when standing in line to buy such a ticket, I was pulled at random from the line and prevented from doing so and asked to pay the fine. I paid for the part of my journey already undertaken and for the part of my journey yet to be undertaken, but no more. I argued that there was no intent by me to defraud anyone therefore there was no offence under common law. No one had suffered loss so no fine could be lawfully imposed. Finally I said, "Why do ticket offices exist inside of the barriers if it is not possible to pay for your journey before you exit the station?" No answer from the suit, just insistence that I pay the "fine."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=7

2. A contract does not exist unless both parties agree to it. (At least, that is what I understand the situation is.) A ticket is an indication that you have accepted to contract with the company concerned and therefore agree to be bound by their rules. a) It surely cannot be legal to impose the rules of any contract on a person before that contract actually exists, can it? By this I mean that saying to someone, "unless you contract with us we will fine you" seems dubious to me. If a person refuses to allow you to purchase a ticket is he not refusing to allow you to lawfully contract with the service provider? If so, how can it be that he is able to levy a penalty? b) As in law no one can be forced to contract with another, is it not also true that no one can be forced not to contract if not doing so would force you to commit an offence? [This may be a logically flawed argument. Comments appreciated]

See also: "4.33 Under rule 7, a person cannot be charged a penalty fare if there were no ticket facilities available at the station where they joined the train, or if the warning notices required by rule 4 were not properly displayed. If a passenger says that they could not buy a ticket or that there were no warning signs, an authorised collector must be able to check that the warning signs are in place and not covered up or damaged, and whether ticket machines are working properly or the ticket office is open. Authorised collectors also need to know when long queues build up at a ticket office so that they can use their discretion towards passengers travelling from that station. This is usually done by giving each authorised collector a mobile phone and a pager to keep them in contact with a central control centre. Arrangements must be made for station staff to contact the control centre if a ticket office closes early or if long queues build up, and to advise the control centre of any ticket or 'permit to travel' machines that are not working. Operators must explain how 'permit to travel' and ticket machines at unstaffed stations will be monitored." From the link above.

Note: If a passenger says that they could not buy a ticket or that there were no warning signs, an authorised collector must be able to check that the warning signs are in place and not covered up or damaged, and whether ticket machines are working properly or the ticket office is open. Authorised collectors also need to know when long queues build up at a ticket office so that they can use their discretion towards passengers travelling from that station. This is usually done by giving each authorised collector a mobile phone and a pager to keep them in contact with a central control centre. Arrangements must be made for station staff to contact the control centre if a ticket office closes early or if long queues build up, and to advise the control centre of any ticket or 'permit to travel' machines that are not working. Operators must explain how 'permit to travel' and ticket machines at unstaffed stations will be monitored. None of these checks were carried out, despite my telling the suit that I was unable to buy a ticket on time because of various events at the issuing station.

3. How can it be lawful to be tried and convicted outside of a court by a man with job title but no authority or legal expertise? I was stopped, questioned, found guilty and fined in about ten minutes, by a man I do not know and whose authority I do not recognise. We have courts and policemen to deal with this stuff. It cannot be right that others, purely on the basis of rules set by themselves, can determine if they think an offence has taken place and impose a penalty based solely on their idea of what the law says. Once again, we are dealing here with statute law. Am I right in thinking that statute law is the law of contract and it is not the same as or superior to Common law? If that is indeed the case, then am I not entitled, having been accused, to a trial before a jury?

4. I was told by the suit that I could appeal his decision to "fine" and handed a penalty notice. I told him I would not be appealing as I had no intention of paying his "fine" or joining in with his companies games. I have made no attempt to appeal and there are still seven days left on the notice in which to do so. How would you advise me to handle it when the demands for payment come in?

5. The circumstances that led me to travelling without a ticket are as follows: I arrived at the station late due to circumstances beyond my control. One ticket machine appeared to be not working. One was working but two females were dithering about which ticket to buy. The ticket office was closed. As I waited, the train pulled in. Because I had an appointment to keep I made a dash for the train intending either to pay on board or at the other end. When I got to the other end I went straight the first staff members I saw and offered to pay. They sent me to a ticket office inside the barriers. Once in the queue to pay I was pulled out of the queue (others were not, I noticed) and fined.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Any help will be gratefully recieved.
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