PENALTY FARE

PENALTY FARE

Postby gepisar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:14 am

I used to do the commute to the big smoke for many years. Ive seen several people FINED for travelling without a ticket nor a permit and for STANDING in 1st Class without a first class ticket.

Can anyone give guidance as to what to do when the revenue protection agents (bullies as i call them) extort money from you?

So, the scenario is, either Ive sat in first class without a 1st class ticket or ive boarded the train without a ticket at all.

Here's my concerns when confronted with a revenue protection agent:

1. I about to give a stranger (NOT A POLICEMAN) my name and address, KNOWING FULL WELL that they know Im not home. And these days, everyone has a mobile. This is a security issue straight away
2. From my experience, if you chose not to fill in the form, they will have a POLICEMAN waiting at your destination.
3. If you do sign the form, you can contest it later, but my cash has already been surrendered (perhaps under duress?)

Can anyone give clear guidance as to the correct R4C procedure here. I mean, when I buy a ticket, Im guessing Im contracting? If i DONT buy a ticket there is no contract with the travel provider. So, REALLY Im thinking i can only get done for sitting in 1st class with a standard ticket (I made the contract) since boarding a train without a ticket provides no contract. Would that now be a statutory offence and outside the jurisdiction of the travel provider?

Then suppose I didnt buy a ticket and i need to get through the barriers without jumping over them: whats the "correct" argument? (I have no contract therefore you can not detain me and must let me pass?)

And so whats the difference with parking tickets?

PRIVATE PCN companies i assume therefore you can R4C -> no contract

BUT what about council PCN's -> do i have tacit contract?

Anyone?
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby jonboy » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:53 am

The train companies are simply private companies offering services like Tesco selling carrots or a BMW dealership. I have always been annoyed about having to pay for buses and trains that are late. By being late, they have failed to deliver the service as advertised, so I think they are cheeky for even asking for money. If I purchased some carrots from tesco and they turned out to be rotten, then I would get my money back. But these train companies seem to think we HAVE to pay for a service we are not 100% satisfied with.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Farmer » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:25 am

That is a very good point you make there jonboy. However, you do use the service knowing that those are the conditions. On the other hand, you don't really have a choice either and the choices you do have are slowly being removed e.g. car travel.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby gepisar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:46 pm

I think I had the worst delivery of train service possible. I used to live in Crowborough and the service to Victoria was nigh on always late. So much so that the desk clerks there insisted customers filled in compliant forms. The rolling stock, i had been informed, was the same as used in the St Trinians film made in 1952.

Anyway, contractually, the rail providers are not obligated to run 100% service. I get the impression is more like 70%.

Theyre allowed 3 minutes before a train can be considered late for example, and theres allsorts of other rules...so shit service is a given. (I know, it should be)

Anyway, i was really interested to know what you would do when confronted by two revenue collection agents demanding your address and 20 of her majesty's(!) debt notes.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Farmer » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:15 pm

gepisar wrote:Anyway, i was really interested to know what you would do when confronted by two revenue collection agents demanding your address and 20 of her majesty's(!) debt notes.


Tell them to mind their own business and pay them.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby gepisar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:56 pm

Farmer wrote:
gepisar wrote:Anyway, i was really interested to know what you would do when confronted by two revenue collection agents demanding your address and 20 of her majesty's(!) debt notes.


Tell them to mind their own business and pay them.


This strategy doesnt work. Ive seen people try and the revenue protection agents insist on name and address. Is there a way to administer A4V or R4C on the spot?
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Arten » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:31 pm

This strategy doesnt work. Ive seen people try and the revenue protection agents insist on name and address. Is there a way to administer A4V or R4C on the spot?

Look even the police cannot extract your name and address if you don't want to give it to them and you have not broken the Law. You could give them a Notice of Conditional Acceptance that should take the wind out of their sails.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby gepisar » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:35 pm

Arten wrote:This strategy doesnt work. Ive seen people try and the revenue protection agents insist on name and address. Is there a way to administer A4V or R4C on the spot?

Look even the police cannot extract your name and address if you don't want to give it to them and you have not broken the Law. You could give them a Notice of Conditional Acceptance that should take the wind out of their sails.


Thats what im saying, people who have refused to give details have found a policeman waiting for them at the destination. SO, then what?
I presume we go through the cat and mouse: "Am i under arrest...am i free to go?"

I was asking if there is remedy before we get to this stage, and the implications and obligations under the circumstance of buying a ticket or not, that may or may not constitute a contract whereby I can lawfully refuse for cause, but not in the case of where I dont have a contract to refuse...i.e. the case where a passenger has NOT bought a ticket.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby deebom » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:08 pm

I went to Waterloo a while ago and the ticket machine wouldnt accept my tenner. I arrived at Waterloo, walked up to the gards and said "sell me a ticket please, your machine didnt work, Iv'e come from so and so." First thing the guard says is "that'll be a £20 fine." I said "What for?" He then started to go on about fare evading and stuff. I said "I'm asking you to sell me a ticket, how is that fare evading?" He started waffling on again about there being posters up evrywhere stating that I must buy a ticket. I said "There are posters evrywhere telling me to buy a BMW, but I dont have one." He started to get pissed off with me and became rude, demanding my name and address, telling me it was illegal to travel on the train without a ticket. I pointed out that it wasnt illegal to travel on public transport without a ticket and asked him to tell me when the law was made. Anyway we debated this for a while, me asking him to sell me a ticket. I kept pointing out that if I was fare evading I would have tried to sneak past him and his co workers, not walk up to them and try to buy a ticket. He threatened to call the police, so I said fair enough call them. Police arrived 5 mins later and asked what the problem was. I Said "He keeps asking for my name and address, why should I give it to him?" The guard told the Police that I was fare evading and that he had to fine me, but couldnt because I was refusing him. The Policeman asked me for my name and address. I said "what for officer?" he looked perplexed and said "because I'm asking. You dont have a ticket." "whats that got to do with you?" I asked. "Pardon?" He said. I said "whats that got to do with you? This is an argument between me and South West Trains. It's got nothing to do with you." He started going on about it being illegal not to have a ticket and so forth. I said "since when did you become a revenue enforcer for South West Trains?" I also added "radio through to your sargent and ask him to find the law that I have broken by asking a guard to sell me a ticket, I'm not giving anyone here my name or address because I havnt done anything wrong." By this time there was a large crowd and I was speaking very loudly. the copper started looking very uncomfortable and started to plead with me "look, just pay the fine and you can appeal it later, then we can all go about our business." "I am NOT paying any fine OK? A fine must be issued by a court. Are you or this guard a court?" The Policeman turns to the guard and says "look mate, just sell him a ticket." I got my ticket and went about my day.
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Re: PENALTY FARE

Postby Jim » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:21 pm

^^^Ha ha ha ha ha CLASS!!!

"radio through to your sargent and ask him to find the law that I have broken by asking a guard to sell me a ticket, I'm not giving anyone here my name or address because I havnt done anything wrong." By this time there was a large crowd and I was speaking very loudly.

LMAO dude

Peace

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