Electrical current

Re: Electrical current

Postby no_ta » Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:18 am

If you look at the high voltage grid, the wires strung from pylons you will notice that there isn't a neutral, there is no return path from our single phase. Our neutral is derived at the local tranformer. Earth return is still 2 conductors. Measure the voltage between live and neutral and live and earth, should be very similar.

It seems that current is the stumbling block here so lets look at a simple example, I am going to use a dc battery so please do not throw up any argument regading electron flow or the differences encountered in dc as opposed to ac, as it will confuse the issue.

The current flowing in a dc circuit toward a load (eg headlamp bulb) is the same flowing away from it, from one battery pole to the other, so if the current flowing back into the battery is supposed to re energise it why does the battery lose its charge?

The energy has been consumed by the bulb.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:39 pm

Whilst an obvious point to make, it's important not to confuse DC and AC systems. The difference is in the name 'alternating current'.

The power stations generate electricity in 3 phases. Imagine a bicycle wheel, one third of the rim is Phase 1 the next third is Phase 2 and the final third is Phase 3. These Phases are 240v above the centre axle at 0v (nominal). The centre is the Neutral position tied to Earth (literally).

The Phases are 'out of phase' by 120 degrees. So the potential difference (voltage) between Phases is 440v. If like America (which has 2 Phases) were 180 degrees apart the difference would be 480v.

The power is then distributed on overhead lines, one cable per phase, 3 lines per pole for a typical 11kv timber pole. There is no neutral line, it is not necessary - it's earth. The neutral is recreated at the pole transformer before it drops down to the cable head and meter.

Because the Current and Voltage are alternating, AC is portrayed by a sine wave -

3 phase sine graph.jpg


The simplistic description follows (leaving out Vpeak and RMS and all that other stuff thrown in to confuse the passerby) The first half of the cycle rises above 0v, peaks at 240v then falls passing through 0v falling to -240v and rises and so on.

Remember the live wire carries the current pushed by the voltage through your appliance and through the neutral (which is tied to earth which was recreated at your cable head). The earth acts as the return cable.

But, and this is why DC should not be compared to AC. The Live wire only pushes current for half the cycle. The Live wire then goes negative compared to the manufactured Neutral (0v Earth) where is continues to push down to -240v. This is how the 'push-pull' thing happens with current going up and down the Live wire / Neutral wire 50 times a second. When the Live wire goes negative relative to the Neutral wire the flow reverses because 0v is less negative to the -240v Live wire.

Confused? The current/voltage flow for the positive side of the sine wave is down the Live to Neutral (0v Earth). For the negative side of the sine wave the flow is down the Neutral (0v Earth) to Live.

That's clearer, right? The Neutral wire, which is manufactured at the step down transfromer at the pole is 0v Earth. And for 25 times per second it is providing power to your appliance by virtue of the fact that they use 'alternating current'. The negative cycle of the phase is like digging a trench in to which elctricity flows from the 0v Neutral (Earth) 'wire' and is used to power our appliances.

So if you follow this. The power comes from the power station down the live wire and back to the power station up the Earth return wire (Neutral) for the positive side of the sine curve. Then comes from the power station down the Earth return wire (Neutral) and back to the power station up the Live wire for the negative side of the sine curve.

Current flows, pushed by the voltage and look where it ends up...The power station.

Can we conceive that the Earth works like this ? Powering our appliances for 50% of the time. If we can't conceive of this, then the power stations are only powering our appliances for 50% of the time (QED). And yes our appliances can demonstrably work on a half rectified power supply. The question then is...Do our appliances work for 50% of the time on the Earth supplied power and the power stations simply gave it a 'shove' and no more?

Now to my limited intellect, I'm prepared to accept that my appliances use some power in this process. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby no_ta » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:22 pm

Now to my limited intellect, I'm prepared to accept that my appliances use some power in this process. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.


That is quite correct you do use some power, and that is what they expect you to pay for.
So where is the confusion?

The Claim
It is claimed that the power supply companies get half of the consumed electricity back

If the power co's get half the juice back how is it handled what do they do with it?
Can someone model an answer, show me and everyone else how this works in practical terms, I need to be convinced that the supplier gets half back?

After many years working with generators, mainly ac, powering all sorts of equipment, including telephone exchanges, I have never been confronted with this concept, therefore I find it difficult to accept
It may be that as an electrical and mechanical engineer, I am brainwashed by traditional understanding, and as I have a reasonably open mind, I am open to offers to convince me that the claim is valid?

In other words as in the legal/lawful phrase - can someone prove the claim?

I would also like to repeat, that I hate these money grabbing b*stards as much as anyone, but I cannot see how this can hold together.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:40 pm

huntingross wrote:So I have asked them something I have known since I was 14. Our very clever physics teacher simply asked us what did the electricity companies do with the electricty they get back ? After all we only 'borrow it' !


It must be understood by everyone that electrons flow at the speed of light. The comparison of electrons in a wire is directly analogous to water in a hosepipe. When a pipe full of water has pressure applied at one end, water will be pushed from the other end instantly. And so it is with electricity.

The push comes from the power station down the live wire through the appliance down the neutral wire to the Earth return tied to the 'centre tap' of the generator in the power station (this is the positive side of the sine curve). Conventional wisdom tells us that the Earth return to the 'centre tap' completes the circuit. Then the Earth return pushes down the neutral wire through the appliance down the live wire to the power station (this is the negative side of the sine curve).

I have done exhaustive searching over the last few months to try and answer my own question, one way or another. What I have found is rhetoric, conventional 'wisdom' and half answers. I have not found one full explanation as to what happens to make the flow reverse other than - that's how AC works. Not one post on the internet to my knowledge explains that the flow reverses down the neutral wire because 0v (Earth) is higher than -240v 'LIVE' wire.

Here is one example on a forum -

The neutral wire is the return path for the spent electrons to return to the transformer for re-energizing. The neutral completes the path so that the transformer can keep functioning.


Here is the perfect response -

I cannot believe some of the whimsical and fanciful things I find on the internet...and from someone who claims to have over 30 years experience with electrical work. Sheesh! Spent electrons returning for re-energizing? Are you even KIDDING me??? So the transformer can keep FUNCTIONING??? What...when they are all expended does the power company have to come out and pour in more??? Crazeee!!!


http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wiring/msg1121130415023.html

Lets be clear. The electron push from the power station ends its first cycle in the Earth return, then returns from the Earth return and ends in the power station. Electrons DO NOT become SPENT.

Are our appliances fed solely from the Earth after a shove from the power station? I don't know.

Are our appliances fed solely from the power station irrespective of the Earth return (virtual wire)? I don't know.

What do the electricity companies do with the electricity they get back? I don't know, hence the question. But it is clear the trail leads back to the power stations.

Later I shall transcribe Tesla's words on wireless transmission of power and you may see the similarity of his vision compared to the reality described above. It may be no accident that the power stations 'pump' their supply.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:37 pm

During the 1880's - 1890's Tesla working with
oscillation transformers and dynamos...the idea gradually took hold of me that the earth might be used in place of the wire, thus dispensing with artificial conductors altogether


Imagine the earth to be a bag of rubber filled with water, a small quantity of which is periodically forced in and out of the same by means of a reciprocating pump, as illustrated. If the strokes of the latter are effected in intervals of more than one hour and forty-eight minutes, sufficient for the transmission of the impulse thru the whole mass, the entire bag will expand and contract and corresponding movements will be imparted to pressure guages or moveable pistons with the same intensity, irrespective of distance. By working the pump faster, shorter waves will be produced which, on reaching the opposite end of the bag, may be reflected and give rise to stationary nodes and loops, but in any case, the fluid being incompressible, its inclosure perfectly elastic, and the frequency of oscillations not very high, the energy will be economically transmitted and very little power consumed so long as no work is done in the receivers...Thus, for instance, the pump is made part of a resonant system of great inertia, enormously magnifying the force of the imprest impulses. The receiving devices are similarly conditioned and in this manner the amount of energy collected in them vastly increased.


Electrical Experimenter. February 1919. Page 732.

And so it's my hunch based on the work of this great man, that the power providers are effecting a great multiplication of effort by 'pumping' the earth at 50 - 60 Hz.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby no_ta » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:16 am

OK
Lets get some practical proof, go get an ac generator and see where it all goes, and if it turns out to be free, connect up your neighbour, then the rest of the street, or do it like the power co's do, raise steam and rotate the turbine, see if it does it for nothing or even half back, to me that is the only proof I would need
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Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:56 pm

The stages of truth -

1. This is worthless nonsense,
2. This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view,
3. This is true, but quite unimportant,
4. I always said so.

On a positive note.

Tesla joined a long list of philosophers on the possibility of wireless transmission of power. The theory is quoted above. The fact was demonstrated in the 1890's. The fact was being constructed in 1901, the Wardenclyffe Tower, which was famously 'torpedoed' by JP Morgan when he realised Tesla was going to broadcast power with no metering.

Now, for some of us (or maybe a lot of us), we find that the power providers are shoving power through the ground routinely for the return and re-return of power to the consumer. Coincidentally at a frequency that (in theory) 'vastly increases the amount of energy' to be collected.

Perhaps I'm unique, but I absolutely remember never being told this crucially important fact at school.

So based on a throw away comment in a Physics lesson I have asked Scottish Power to comment. With their lengthy experience in the provision of power I would have expected them to kill this question DEAD. Instead, 7 months on, some of the highlights - they have tried threats of serious consequences for none payment of an unsubstantiated bill, stolen money from my account and comitted fraud. But not addressed the question.

Can we say - Smell a rat ?

Will I be providing proof of claim ? They're more inferred claims based on filling in the gaps resulting from a conventional 'wisdom' education that misses the important bits.

Will anyone be disproving the inferred claims ? I doubt it.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby squark » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:31 pm

Hunting Ross, you said
"It must be understood by everyone that electrons flow at the speed of light."
That is wrong. Electrons creep along a wire quite slowly. They bump their way from atom to atom, a small step at a time.
Electro Magnetic Radiation (Light, Heat, EM Fields etc) travels through the vacuum of space at the speed of light.

What happened to me when I asked the power company why their bill was not signed in accordance with the Bills of Exchange Act (I read it here as a newbie) was, they did not answer, they (eventually) went to court on a day I was not available, and got a warrant to force fit a payg meter. That cost me £500. I made a wood burner and generally speaking sit under a duvet. A bill of exchange is not the same as an invoice!
Best of luck but I would say, "You don't stand a chance of any kind of win" Its like you asked them what electricity is, it makes no difference what it is, you used it, now pay. You want to know the chemical formula of oranges at the supermarket?

We should be working on getting the supressed/secret technology released, telling people to look up Thorium asking the government "if the future of the planet and mankind really depends on energy efficiency why did you insulate all those houses with shredded paper in stead of Starlite? " See REX RESEARCH for what Starlight is (its bloody good insulation)
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Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:52 am

squark wrote:Electrons creep along a wire quite slowly. They bump their way from atom to atom, a small step at a time.


True. But the effect of raising the potential of one end of the wire is immediate, considered to be approaching the speed of light. This is because the wire is stuffed with electrons, like 'shove penny' games. In any event it is not integral to my point and if it is incorrect should be disregarded.

The key point is the result of the first 'shove' starts at the power station, returns to earth, eminates from the earth and returns to the power station.

The earth bit in the middle of the cycle sounds like the process Tesla and others described and the end bit of the cycle sounds like the bit Tesla described as vastly increasing the amount of energy that can be collected.

So my question isn't do I use power should I pay for it. My question is what do they do with the stuff they get back. If they answer that question I will have a whole load of other questions. Not least of all based on the 'vast increase' point. If there is a vast increase why are the bills so high, especially as it only takes an initial shove.

Arguably, the first shove is all it takes to sustain a system that multiplies its effect.
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Re: Electrical current

Postby squark » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:30 pm

Tesla was working with Longitudinal waves (forwards and back).
The power companies supply Transverse (up down or side to side) waves.
Very different beasts. Different properties.
I think although the power companies get electrons back, if compared to a balloon, it's fully inflated when it leaves the power station and half flat by the time it gets back. You have used the air in the balloon to do work.
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