Electrical current

Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Thu May 16, 2013 9:22 pm

I was always told to choose your battles. Well here's another that came to my door.

Scottish Power have decided to dramatically increase my direct debit because they have determined that they have under estimated their estimated bills.....Go figure how you can under guess a guess ?

So I have asked them something I have known since I was 14. Our very clever physics teacher simply asked us what did the electricity companies do with the electricty they get back ? After all we only 'borrow it' !

So in reply to their nonsense I have asked them to explain what they do with it. I await their reply.

The gist of it is this -

Power (volts x amps) comes down the live phase wire, through the appliance and back out neutral wire back to the suppliers grid.

The appliance (the bit in the middle) uses what it requires as the rest of it passes by.

Every spark knows that a meter connected the other way around goes backwards, its about flow being metered, not power used.

So a meter on the out going wires would equal the meter on the incoming wires.

If you ever want to test my theory, short the circuit and the RCB will trip, or press the test button and short it that way. The RCB monitors the in and out current, if they are not equal, it trips. 'In' equals 'Out'.

Their answer will be amusing and no doubt full of deceit.
Success nourishes hope
User avatar
huntingross
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:29 pm
Location: FIDACH, Near Edinburgh

Re: Electrical current

Postby treeman » Thu May 16, 2013 9:43 pm

Beautiful, I await their reply with anticipation. Loyalty, integrity and honourability may not be forthcoming though. :yes:
I'll make no subscription to their paradise.

All Rights Reserved - Without Prejudice - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
Errors & Omissions Excepted
User avatar
treeman
 
Posts: 2821
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: On the Land

Re: Electrical current

Postby holy vehm » Fri May 17, 2013 7:45 am

huntingross wrote:I was always told to choose your battles. Well here's another that came to my door.


These battles have a way of seeking us out :grin:

Perfectly reasonable question you have posed HR, their answer, if any, will be rather interesting to say the least.
"A ruler who violates the law is illegitimate. He has no right to be obeyed. His commands are mere force and coercion. Rulers who act lawlessly, whose laws are unlawful, are mere criminals".
User avatar
holy vehm
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 3077
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:17 pm
Location: http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=9142

Re: Electrical current

Postby MikeThomas » Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

huntingross wrote:
So I have asked them something I have known since I was 14. Our very clever physics teacher simply asked us what did the electricity companies do with the electricty they get back ? After all we only 'borrow it' !

So in reply to their nonsense I have asked them to explain what they do with it. I await their reply.

The gist of it is this -

Power (volts x amps) comes down the live phase wire, through the appliance and back out neutral wire back to the suppliers grid.

The appliance (the bit in the middle) uses what it requires as the rest of it passes by.

Every spark knows that a meter connected the other way around goes backwards, its about flow being metered, not power used.

So a meter on the out going wires would equal the meter on the incoming wires.

If you ever want to test my theory, short the circuit and the RCB will trip, or press the test button and short it that way. The RCB monitors the in and out current, if they are not equal, it trips. 'In' equals 'Out'.


Any chance you could elaborate on this please HR? I can follow the logic of what you say but I'm reluctant to believe it.......... its just too mind blowing!
We are the people our parents told us NOT TO PLAY WITH
User avatar
MikeThomas
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:17 pm
Location: Llanharan, South Wales

Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Fri May 17, 2013 12:33 pm

Here's some stuff to keep you going -

http://www.havmain.co.uk/blog/electrical-services-and-electricians/what-is-an-rcbo-electrician/

It works in a similar way to an RCD measuring the current on the live and neutral conductors. If they are not equal it suggests there is current leakage to earth, which could potentially mean someone is standing on their bed with their finger touching the live conductor of a light as they are attempting to change a light bulb – the RCBO will break the circuit or trip.

http://www.lutroninstaller.com/assets/kbitems/Lutron%20RCBO%20Panels.pdf

The sum of all supply and return currents must be equal to zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

A residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB), is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral conductor.

http://www.sbapower.com/voltages_cause.asp

Both three and single-phase power lines are equipped with a neutral to return current back to their substation.

Thus there is a small voltage usually present on power line neutrals. [This is why there is an earth wire. If the supply neutral is not close to earth then the actual voltage drop across the supply live and earth could be very much greater than 240v... ie 240v drop across the supply live and neutral where the neutral has a drop to earth of 1000v = 1240v which is a serious kick when you lick your fingers before doing a wiring job. The higher the voltage the greater the air gap that can be bridged. It’s not the voltage that kills it’s the current and big volts with big current....well, enough said]
Success nourishes hope
User avatar
huntingross
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:29 pm
Location: FIDACH, Near Edinburgh

Re: Electrical current

Postby pitano1 » Sat May 18, 2013 8:08 am

very interesting..h.r
i had never realised/thought about the fact,that the surplus goes back to the grid.

regarding how the suppliers.?..distributors charge/rip us off.

it seems,that they do not charge for the electricity,but in fact for the meter.

in the recent past,some have replaced the official meter,with their own
[professionally fitted] meter,and as long as you send in a reading...bingo
no invoice.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/section/16
http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=35628&start=10
If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.
Henry David Thoreau
ALL UNALIENABLE RIGHTS RESERVED -AB INITIO - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
pitano1
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 1:38 pm
Location: on the land

Re: Electrical current

Postby holy vehm » Sat May 18, 2013 3:47 pm

Have you any links to further reading, HR. Interesting subject.
"A ruler who violates the law is illegitimate. He has no right to be obeyed. His commands are mere force and coercion. Rulers who act lawlessly, whose laws are unlawful, are mere criminals".
User avatar
holy vehm
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 3077
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:17 pm
Location: http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=9142

Re: Electrical current

Postby enegiss » Sat May 18, 2013 8:29 pm

this reads in a fascinating sense, but, i am not an expert.

quite a bit of a read.

http://servantofthelight.com/content/view/32/60/

Ignoring the Vacuum as the Source of Electrical Energy in All Circuits


In their conventional theoretical models, our present electrical power system scientists and engineers do not even include the vacuum interaction or the dipole's extraction of EM energy from the vacuum. They simply ignore — and do not model — what is really powering every electrical system they build.


Consequently, we reiterate that our electrical scientists have never even discovered how an EM circuit is powered — even though it has been discovered and known for nearly 50 years in particle physics.


All the hydrocarbons ever burned, all the water over all the dams ever built, all the nuclear fuel rods ever expended in all the nuclear power plants, added not a single watt to the power line.


Instead, all that expense, effort, and pollution and destruction of the biosphere was and is necessary in order to keep adding internal energy to the generator — so that it can keep continually rebuilding its source dipole that is continually destroyed by the inane circuits that the power system scientists and engineers keep designing and building for us.


It takes as much energy input to the generator to restore the dipole, as it took the circuit to destroy the dipole. Thus all the systems our scientists and engineers design and build, require that we continually input more energy to restore the dipole, than the circuit dissipates in the load.


Our technical folks thus happily design and give us systems which can and will only exhibit COP<1.0. — thus continuing to require that we ourselves steadily provide more energy to the system to continually rebuild its dipole, than the inane masochistic system uses to power its load.


In short, we pay the power companies (and their scientists and engineers) to deliberately engage in a giant wrestling match inside their generators and lose.

i agree, they just rent you the monitoring unit and charge for wear and tear mostly, it seems.

Good Topic HR.
if you wish to create a favourable History, then you have to start now.
enegiss
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Electrical current

Postby huntingross » Sat May 18, 2013 10:46 pm

Hi Pitano, sorry to say that I read a lot of the Electricity Act today and like the posts on that forum I conclude the ‘fit your own meter and never pay another bill brigade’ is just another urban myth.

You may fit your own meter if the supplier agrees, but he will still charge you for the supply of electricity.


However I see some mileage in these areas :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/section/22

22 - Special agreements with respect to connection.

(1)Notwithstanding anything in sections 16 to 21, a person who requires a connection in pursuance of section 16(1) may enter into an agreement with the electricity distributor (referred to in this Part as a “special connection agreement”) for the making of the connection on such terms as may be agreed by the parties.

(2)So long as a special connection agreement is effective, the rights and liabilities of the parties shall be those arising under the agreement and not those provided for by sections 16 to 21.

(3)Nothing in subsection (2) prevents the giving of a notice under section 16A(1) requiring a connection to be made as from the time when a special connection agreement ceases to be effective.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/schedule/7

Schedule 7 –
1 (1A)(2A)[An authorised supplier] may refuse to allow one of his customers to provide a meter only if there are reasonable grounds for his refusal.]


Come to a special agreement with your supplier to zero out your bill on the basis that he gets most if not all his power back. If you can’t come to an agreement on this basis, then fit a meter on the return wire and counter charge on the return of power. If the supplier ‘reasonably’ refuses, then take such a refusal as supporting your contention that the power returns in equal measure and that the refusal is therefore un-reasonable.

This is amusing –

59 - Making of false statements etc.

(2)Any person who seeks to obtain entry to any premises by falsely pretending to be—

(a)an employee of [or other person acting on behalf of, an electricity distributor or electricity supplier];
(b)an electrical inspector; or
(c)a meter examiner,

shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.


How does one “falsely pretend” ?

falsely - in an insincerely false manner
pretend - to allege or profess, esp. insincerely or falsely


Don’t two ‘falses’ make a ‘right’….or is it just negatives that do that ? So if these people are who they say they are, aren’t they liable to summary conviction ?
Success nourishes hope
User avatar
huntingross
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4324
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:29 pm
Location: FIDACH, Near Edinburgh

Re: Electrical current

Postby Freeman Stephen » Sat May 18, 2013 10:50 pm

If you take a bucket of water to the top of a shelter skelter and pour it down the chute, the amount of water that flows off the chute at the bottom will br exactly equal to the amount of water poured out the bucket.

The water might cause water wheels placed in the chute to turn and you could say that gravity causes the wheels to turn but someone had to take the bucket up the steps.

While current in equals current out, the power supplied is not just dependant on current but the voltage times the current.

Voltage doesnt move in and out but is a potential that must be overcome between two points on a circuit. In a uk domestic appliance, this potential is fixed at 240 volts.

Its a bit like the static CHARGE (coulumbs) you get from a metal handrail, except once you get your unexpected shock, the charge on the handrail is discharged. The voltage is the potential that will be required to prevent that handrail from discharging while you touch it. The charge across the resistance over the time the charge is maintained.

This requires energy of one joule for every coulumb of charge that has to be maintained per volt of potential across the resistance. Its can baffle fifth year physics students not because it has paradoxes but because there are so many variables in the simple flow of electrons: watts of power, joules of energy, volts of potential, amps of current, ohms of resistance and coulumbs of charge.

The generation of electricity in the conventional sense is even more complex involving not just the conductivity of metals (inverse of resistance) but the reluctance of magnets and the reactivity of chemical ions.

In the contemporary generation of electricity photoelectric, pyroelectric and peisoelectric phenomena are complex simply because of the current mysteries scientists are continuing to unlock.

Most interesting to me is the pyroelectric effect since its a way to generate electrical energy directly by heat - ie I long to have a device I can sit on a stove that will charge up my phone.

The effect is achieved by a temperature difference across a few known crystals. There are likely many of these crystals freely available in your garden but no one knows what they are : you know those white translucunt pebbles you find everywhere (silica quartz) those are pyroelectric but they are not the best.

Piezoelectric is similar to pyroelectric except instead of a temperature variant causing the effect its a kinetic variant - ie changing the physical forces on the crystal with anything from a repeated hammer blows to the altering air pressure of soundwaves causes the crystal to display opposing charges on each of its poles. The eletret speaker common in mobile devices is actually a layer of piesoelectric crystals on a metal plate. Rather than air pressure pumping it to create charge - charge is supplied to create pressure - soundwaves - they work in reverse like an electric motor is also a dynamo.

The photoelectric effect is the most well known of the alternative energy production methods. Electromagnetic energy such as light causes an effect where positive charge on the metal is favoured - shining ultraviloet light on a negatively charged sheet of copper causes the negative charge to dissipate. certain silicone-metal crystals take advantage of this discharge effect causing a pair of opposing charges to occur across their poles. Its not just hard to work crystals,either - copper oxide crystals exhibit this phenemena as well but not as well.

Take a plate of copper and heat it until it begins to corrode in the air - ie you want to combust the top layer of copper into copper oxide. Sand off the burnt layer on one side and place multimeter probes on either side. Watch the millivolts rise as you bring the plates burnt side into sunlight. (I dont mean charcoal black burnt as thats carbon from exposure to the fuel but copper oxide red and copper II oxide purple - if placed on an open flame you should sand the blackened underside back to the copper layers but the top side should not collect any suit and will turn shades of red and purple as it burns).

If somehow you can burn the plate in a strong electric field, it may significantly improve its efficiency as the crystals should have a better aligned polarity - havent tried this yet and Im not sure whether the positive side of the field should be up or down.

Electrochemical energy generation is the easiest and hardest to achieve at the same time. Take a metal container - a tealight holder or an emptied bean can. Fill it with really salty water. Place one probe in the salt water and the other on the metal container - voila - half a volt from an aluminium tea light or a little less from a steel can. You could use more reactive metal containers made of copper or tin but these types of containers arent found in your bin.

Now I said electrochemical generation was the easiest and hardest to achieve, and lets take the aluminium tea light container as an example. Aluminium is smelted mainly from bauxite ore which the elite have an oligarchy over. It was once regarded as a precious metal - the washington monument needle has an aluminium cap from the days when the only aluminium was the rare raw examples in nature.

Crushing up bauxite rocks and heating them in a furnace does not like iron ore cause the breakdown which causes the slag to separate from the molten metal. Smelting metals is a job in and of its self but reactive metals such as aluminium require to be electrolysed while they are being smelted - what Im saying is that the amount of energy it took to produce that pure aluminium tealight holder is more than the amount of energy it will provide as part of the salt water battery explained above. Generating electrochemical energy causes the most reactive of the metals to deteriorate at the anode into the metal hydroxide which need to be resmelted again.

The electromagnetic effect is the most used method of generating electrical energy. It is produced mechanically by moving a magnet field toward and away from a metal causing a current to flow. The reverse is also true so that changing the flow of current through a metal causes a magnetic field to form. Coils of conductor with changing current through them can be an alternative for an actual magnet and its these,electromagnets that are preferred for electricity generation today.

To simplify matters they can be viewed as ordinary magnets inducing current in a wheel of coiled conductor. The energy produced in the coils as well as being dependant on the strength of the magnetic field, is also dependent on the number of windings in the coil, the thickness of the conductor and most importantly, the rate at which the magnetic field is changing round the coils - how fast the wheel is turning.

This rotation is produced mechanically by a turbine - wind power is very simple but it could also be powered by a jet of steam which is boiled from water via coal, gas or even the heat of a controlled nuclear reaction.

The biggest problem with mechanical generation is the tendency of things to break down. Electrochemical generation takes not only mechanical processes to produce the initial chemicals - pure metals - but as the metals disintegrate on production, it takes alot more energy to than most realise when placing a duracell inside a pink drummer bunny.

Peisoelectric is mechanical by nature also which leaves photoelectric and pyrielectric.

At the moment photoelectric is pretty bad (about ten percent of solar energy is converted to electricity in current solar cells). They are not so good unless the sun is splitting the trees, whereas pyroelectric energy is mostly unresearched and would have as much poyltential in any weather and could replace the mechanical elements in gas, oil, coal, wood and nuclear power plants. Yet its a niche area - if pyroelectric devices become too cheap - most countries wont need power plants as everyone will be able to carry their personal generator very lightly or even just sitting by the fireplace.
User avatar
Freeman Stephen
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1377
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:07 am

Next

Return to Utility Bills

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest