energy suppliers

energy suppliers

Postby dslug » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:24 am

Hi all, when you change energy suppliers does anyone know what happens if you cancel one suppliers service telling them you are going with another company and then dont sign up with one , who would know ? how would that work.
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby gepisar » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:52 am

DOnt know, I assume that if youve given "notice" to cancel the contract of the first company, at that date, they will suspend supply. Seems sensible. Did they? What happened?

And heres a good one: I just emailed my supplier asking for the termination process: here's their response:

"Thank you for your email. This is to inform you that we need the followong details to close down your account : 1. Your move out date 2. Meter reads on that day 3. Your forwarding address 4. Details of the new tenants moving into the property Looking forward for your reply. "

So, they dont need my name, my address or anything else?
FYI, Im moving to India for 2 months, what should I tell them?

AND I WAS STAGGERED that they ask for the new tenants names. I doubt even my landlord knows at this stage! Even so, hes refurbishing after I move out so I will never know, but I was staggered they'd even ask.

Is this a notice of offer? Do I need to rebut this notice stating that the terms under which they're offering to close my account is unacceptable? Jeez...
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby brian (angel Isle) » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:13 pm

The original supplier will ignore you until contacted by the "other" new supplier. The new supplier will then make all the arrangements for the switch-over. (In reality nothing happens as both gas and electricity come from the same place, all they do is switch the contract and billing from one supplier to the next.) The only exception to that is when you move house where the original supplier will provide a final bill and wait for the new address or new supplier to contact them, but they do not stop providing for the old address and simply add any usage from that point on to the new customer. (Obviously if the house is empty then there should be no usage until the new occupiers arrive.)

Utility providers have a statutory duty to "provide" services, so they must provide, (at the very least,) the ability to receive those services, even if the occupier demands they be removed or they are no longer required.

Gas, electricity, telephone, (landline,) and water are all "monopolies" hidden under the guise of separate corporate entities, (in the case of electric and gas, six in total,) who are simply there to create the illusion that the customer has a choice, (just like our current political system.)

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Re: energy suppliers

Postby kevin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:16 pm

spot on Brian :shake:
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby gepisar » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:15 pm

I was wondering the other day...

When I read that Tesco makes 1billion quid in 6months, it tells me that someone is getting ripped off. Either the customer, supplier, or distributors, or all of them.

When I read that wholesale prices of gas and leccy are falling, and my gas bill goes up, i know someone it taking the piss.

What would it take, to become an electricity supplier? In my mind its quite simple: buy wholesale electricity and create contracts with consumers (freemen need not apply :wink: ) then have the accounting capability to track and bill, which these days could be run on a home PC (V?) and outsource maintenance and customer service. This is how Virgin mobile got so big so fast. What's it called Virtual mobile operator? They just bought up cheap air time and sold it.

So, i just need a large creditor to bank roll the first wholesale purchase? Anyone wanna go halves?

How much more difficult can it be?
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby brian (angel Isle) » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:26 pm

How much more difficult can it be?

You forgot;

a) being from a foreign country, (as most are owned by international entities,)
b) being prepared to bend to the will of the monopoly,
c) knowing the right people, (mostly government backhanders,)
d) being as unscrupulous and corrupt as they are,
e) a complete and utter lying bastard,
f) and totally unconcerned about anyone other than yourself.

Then you might be getting somewhere close.

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Re: energy suppliers

Postby gepisar » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:57 pm

brian (angel Isle) wrote:
How much more difficult can it be?

You forgot;


I feel your post is a little biased. I do detect subtle hints.

a) being from a foreign country, (as most are owned by international entities,)

Whats that got to do with anything?
b) being prepared to bend to the will of the monopoly,

WHO runs the monopoly (cartel really?)
c) knowing the right people, (mostly government backhanders,)

Well, if done it full public view this might not be required. LIke a "peoples" utility company... if we had 2million members, im sure things could be done.
d) being as unscrupulous and corrupt as they are,

No need...95% of "profits" returned to consumers. (yeah, well I do NEED a big fat bonus!)
e) a complete and utter lying bastard,

Im looking to re-define the standard.
f) and totally unconcerned about anyone other than yourself.

NOT A PROBLEM! Actually that would be...

Then you might be getting somewhere close.

Brian (Angel Isle)


Im still non the wiser. Whats REALLY needed to set up a utility company?
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby brian (angel Isle) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:49 pm

I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were not being totally serious and my comments were aimed more at the current state of play concerning the monopolies that already exist rather than on any personal level. The fact I used the second person pronoun was simply because it was "you" who stated your interest in becoming an energy supplier, especially when the use of a first person pronoun would have been totally inappropriate. However if you are serious, then I think you'll find a whole host of real obstacles that will likely prevent you from getting anywhere near operating your own energy business. (These were not cottage industries that started in someone's garden shed.) I seriously doubt that the existing six are going to allow a relatively newcomer, no natter how well intended, to step in and undermine their pre-arranged, existing racket. (I think that's why it's called a monopoly.) Still I have been known to be be wrong.

To play anywhere within their ball park the new co-op would initially be looking at finances roughly in the same area as most of the existing six, remembering that we are in a recession, and banks are very reluctant to lend money, but we're still talking about an awful lot of money. Next as all the cables and pipes belong to the monopoly this new co-op would be reliant on all their agreements and contracts and if "they" didn't want to trade then "they" could make life very, very difficult, unless of course the new co-op lays it's own cables and pipes, which would then be reliant on the government allowing the co-op to do so, although they would also have to rely on the government for a trading license, and as we know, good intent does not necessarily win anyone a trading license, (Richard Branson and Camelot being a prime example.)

Still, that's just me being cynical, and the reality may be nowhere near my estimation. I guess if you are truly serious then the best way to proceed, especially with a co-op is to first see how many people you can get to join in the venture, (after all we are led to believe that in our society the majority rules, so if enough people stand up to be counted then surely no one can stand in their way, can they?) Once you've done that you can approach the financial institutes with a business plan, using any funding you've managed to raise through the co-op. You'll also need a whole bunch of business contracts to protect everyone, especially anyone who is providing any form of financial funding/backing towards the venture. As for trading licenses, general electric and gas supplies, leasing of equipment, rentals, etc, etc, those are things that would have to be looked into very carefully, granted difficult and complicated, but I should imagine not impossible.

On the positive side, I doubt there would be many who would not subscribe to an energy supplier who was a lot cheaper and more efficient than any of the existing six.

As a final note, the new co-op might have to consider sending everyone real bills of exchange and acceptance for value?

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Re: energy suppliers

Postby gepisar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:09 pm

I wasnt really sure how the power world worked. I had assumed there were a few producers (wholesale) that the likes of Scottish Power bought energy from and then "sold" it to us. i.e. that Sottish Power were little more that a large invoicing/admin firm. That being the case, theres always room for one more middle man!
BUT NO, turns out these guys actually own the power plants:

http://www.powerstationeffects.co.uk/pdf/UK-OperationalPlantsMay2004.pdf

I must look into the sale of goods act to see if there's anything in there: I pay scottish power for my leccy. How can I be sure THEY are actually delivering it? I mean, the actual stream of electrons (ok I know theres a debate to be had about the definition) that are in my lightbulb, did they actually come from Scottish Powers generators? Can that be proved. NO. Quantum Physics says that there is an unlikely, but distinct possibility that the electron could have come from a anywhere else. In theory, unless the electrons can be tagged, its impossible to say WHERE they came from, what with so many generators all plugged into the same grid. I mean I guess this is so because you can stick a windmill in your back yard and sell the electricity BACK to the grid... whoever that is? Oh well, was a worthy question anyway. It is still a puzzle how Enron seemed to buy and sell power all over the world. They were even caught turning off generators in California - the infamous blackouts. And the instructions came from the Enron traders themselves. What kind of authority does a trader have over a power generator! Bizarre. Just a thought...
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Re: energy suppliers

Postby holy vehm » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:41 pm

The network for delivery of energy is run by the national grid for both gas and electricity.
then you have the energy producers, i.e. those that own the power plants
and then you have the billing companies.
A company can buy x amount of gas from the gas markets and sell it to you the customer. they will then bill you accordingly.
The national grid will charge the company a fee for using their distribution networks.
This fee is passed on to you the customer.
The same principal applies to electricity. In your case scottish power, produce electricity and put it onto the national grid. Scottish power pay a charge for this to the national grid.
You as a supplier/billing company buy the elecricity from scottish power and then sell it to the customer.
As scottish power both make and sell the energy no one can under cut them allowing them to fix the price/market.

you the customer cannot buy direct at trade prices. You have to get it from a licenced supplier.

Its the same with british telecom, they own the delivery network, thats why if you have sky tv you need a bt landline.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/About/How+Gas+is+Delivered/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(UK)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_plc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Group

Price info.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7e51a3fe-ae13-11de-87e7-00144feabdc0.html

According to energy consultants ICIS Heren, the price of wholesale gas in summer 2009 is 49.87p, but rises to 53.5p in summer 2010 and to 55.p in 2011.

Though this price has fallen very sharply since the peak they reached this summer, Ed Cox at the company said, "They remain very high in historical terms compared to a few years ago.

"The era of cheap energy is very much over."

Most experts agree that consumers will never see prices return to where they were five years ago, when the average gas and electricity bill for a family was nearly half its current level – at just £534 a year.

Mr Luff agreed that forward gas prices had calmed down since the summer – which could see suppliers trim their bills in the New Year. But, in the longer-term in the UK, the cost of energy was much more expensive than both Europe and America.

"In the past Europe set a ceiling for prices, now it sets a floor," he said.

According to figures submitted to the committee the forward price of gas in 2011 is lower in Europe by at least 5 pence a therm, and even lower in America.

He blamed the lack of storage capacity for imported gas. Britain can store between 10 and 12 days' worth of gas, compared with an average of 70 days' worth of storage in Europe.

Various projects to increase capacity in this country have run into trouble because of the credit crisis. Portland Gas, which was planning a major facility in Dorset, admitted earlier this month that it will be seriously delayed.

Not only will consumers need to get used to annual energy bills of well above £1,000, business users will be very heavily hit.

Jeremy Nicholson, the chief executive of the Energy Intensive Users Group, which represents glass, paper, chemical and brick factories, all of whom consume vast quantities of energy, said: "Britain is no longer competitive with Europe and the gap has widened in recent years, despite repeated protestations from Ofgem and ministers that the problem will sort itself out.

"Everyone will be hit by these high forward energy prices – consumers and businesses."

Mr Buchanan defended himself from accusations by Committee members that the regulator was a "toothless tiger".

"We are quite comfortable giving the industry a good kicking," he said. He also promised to investigate why so many customers, who pay their bills by direct debit, were in credit to their energy suppliers.

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