Slave Talk

Slave Talk

Postby cassandra » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:08 am

Original Article courtesy of Planck's Constant:<br /> <a href="URL of article">Title</a>

Slavery has been abolished in many countries in the world. However, the practice still continues in a number of countries.
1. Mauritania is 100% Muslim
It is also a country with the largest proportion of its population in slavery, about 20% of the population. From Wikipedia:
Slavery in Mauritania is an entrenched phenomenon the national government has repeatedly tried to abolish, banning the practice in 1905, 1981, and August 2007. The descendants of black Africans abducted into slavery now live in Mauritania as "black Moors" or haratin and partially still serve the "white Moors", or bidhan (Arab Muslims), as slaves.
The number of slaves in the country was not known exactly, but is was estimated to be up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population of 3,069,000 people. Even though slavery is illegal, sociologist Kevin Bales believes that Mauritania is the country with the largest proportion of its population in slavery.

2. Sudan is 70% Muslim
According to Wikipedia:
Slavery in the Sudan pre-dates Islam, but continued under Islamic rulers and has never completely died out in Sudan. In the Sudan, Christian and animist captives in the civil war are often enslaved, and female prisoners are often used sexually, with their Muslim captors claiming that Islamic law grants them permission.
According to CBS news, slaves have been sold for $50 a piece. In 2001 CNN reported the Bush administration was under pressure from Congress, including conservative Christians concerned about religious oppression and slavery, to address issues involved in the Sudanese conflict. CNN has also quoted the U.S. State Department's allegations: "The Sudanese government's support of slavery and its continued military action which has resulted in numerous deaths are due in part to the victims' religious beliefs.

3. Mali is 90% Muslim
According to the U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009:
Mali is a source, transit, and destination country for women and children trafficked for the purposes of forced labour and, to a lesser extent, commercial sexual exploitation. In Mali, victims are trafficked from rural areas to urban centres, agricultural zones, and artisan-al mining sites. Victims are also trafficked between Mali and other West African countries. Some notable destination countries for Malian child victims are Burkina Faso, Cote d’Ivoire, Guinea, Senegal, Mauritania, Niger, and Nigeria.
Women and girls are trafficked primarily for domestic servitude and, to a lesser extent, forced prostitution, while boys are trafficked for forced begging and forced labor in gold mines and agricultural settings both within Mali and to neighbouring countries. Reports in the last year indicate that Malian boys and girls are trafficked to Senegal and Guinea for labour in gold mines and to Cote d’Ivoire for forced labour on cotton and cocoa farms. Boys from Mali, Guinea, Burkina Faso and other countries are trafficked by Koranic masters within Mali and across borders for forced begging and other forms of forced labour.
Adult men and boys, primarily of Songhai ethnicity, are subjected to the long standing practice of debt bondage in the salt mines of Taoudenni in northern Mali. Some members of Mali’s black Tamachek community are subjected to traditional slavery-related practices rooted in hereditary master-slave relationships.

4. Chad is 53% Muslim
According to UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs:
IRIN (Integrated Regional Information Networks) of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports children being sold to Arab herdsmen in Chad. As part of a new identity imposed on them the herdsmen "...change their name, forbid them to speak in their native dialect, ban them from conversing with people from their own ethnic group and make them adopt Islam as their religion.


5. Niger is 80% Muslim
According to Wikipedia:
In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves. Slavery dates back for centuries in Niger and was finally criminalised in 2003, after five years of lobbying by Anti-Slavery International and the Nigerian human-rights group Timidria. More than 870,000 people still live in conditions of forced labour, according to Timidria, a local human rights group.

6. Nigeria is 75% Muslim
At least one million Nigerian children are sold into internal and external slavery annually, according to experts who say this has put the country on an odious list of the world’s eight worst abusers of the rights of children.
According to U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June 2009:
Nigeria is a source, transit, and destination country for women and children trafficked for the purposes of forced labour and commercial sexual exploitation.
Within Nigeria, women and girls are trafficked primarily for domestic servitude and commercial sexual exploitation. Boys are trafficked for forced labour in street vending, agriculture, mining, stone quarries, and as domestic servants. Religious teachers also traffic boys, called al majiri, for forced begging. Women, girls, and boys are trafficked from Nigeria to other West and Central African countries, primarily Gabon, Cameroon, Ghana, Chad, Benin, Togo, Niger, Burkina Faso, and The Gambia, for the same purposes listed above.
Benin is a primary source country for boys and girls trafficked for forced labour in Nigeria’s granite quarries. Nigerian women and girls are trafficked through Libya, Morocco, and Algeria to Europe, primarily for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation, and to the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia, for forced prostitution and forced labour. While Italy is the primary European destination country for Nigerian victims, other common destinations are Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, Ireland, France, and Greece. Children from Nigeria and other African countries are trafficked from Lagos to the UK’s urban centres for domestic servitude and forced labour in restaurants and shops.

I could continue to document another few dozen countries, but it is not necessary; It is very simple and easy to know whether there is slavery in a particular country: if a country is Muslim majority, then there is slavery in that country.


Cassandra.
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby Dreadlock » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:23 pm

Threre's slavery in this country too. The entire western world uses slaves. They call them the general public.
The only difference between the general public and traditional slaves is that the latter are aware of their circumstance...
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby cassandra » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:47 am

Dreadlock wrote:Threre's slavery in this country too. The entire western world uses slaves. They call them the general public.
The only difference between the general public and traditional slaves is that the latter are aware of their circumstance...


"The only difference" - Jesus Christ, do you really mean that?
I wonder if you described this western style wage slavery to a real slave in a salt mine if he would agree with you and say something like "Oh well, if it's slavery there as well I might as well stay here?"
You know, Dread, when you respond to posts like this in the way you do it trivialises the matter. Are you aware of how cynical it makes you look? How uncaring? And you know, it happens most often when Islam or Muslims are mentioned? They really are indefensible, you know, and all you have to do is read the Koran and your head will be straightened out on the matter. Defending Islam and Muslims is like defending the worst aspects of Stalinism and death squads.
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby Dreadlock » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:56 pm

No, obviously it's not the only difference. I was just making a quick post before bed with no intent to go into great detail about anything - I even posted "There's" incorrectly because I was rushed.

For the record, I've never defended unlawful acts by muslims on this forum nor will I. I do think that tarring them all with the same brush is stupid, just as stupid as hatred towards all Jews - because a bunch of them behave every bit as badly as radical muslims. Ever read the Talmud? I wouldn't answer that If I were you because if you are a gentile and you HAVE read the Talmud, the penalty is death... If I was forced to choose between following the Talmud or the Koran, I'd take the Koran any day of the week.

Also, as you pointed out, the destinations for the slaves are often western nations. If there was no demand there would be no trade, so maybe "we" should share some of the blame? I would be interested to know how widespread salvery was in those countries you listed BEFORE they were islamicised. I have no idea, but I suspect slavery in those nations was widespread before the introduction of Islam to them, or at least before Islam became widespread - which would make placing the blame for all the slavery on Islam somewhat disingenuous.
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby cassandra » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:08 pm

Dreadlock wrote:No, obviously it's not the only difference. I was just making a quick post before bed with no intent to go into great detail about anything - I even posted "There's" incorrectly because I was rushed.

For the record, I've never defended unlawful acts by muslims on this forum nor will I. I do think that tarring them all with the same brush is stupid, just as stupid as hatred towards all Jews - because a bunch of them behave every bit as badly as radical muslims. Ever read the Talmud? I wouldn't answer that If I were you because if you are a gentile and you HAVE read the Talmud, the penalty is death... If I was forced to choose between following the Talmud or the Koran, I'd take the Koran any day of the week.

Also, as you pointed out, the destinations for the slaves are often western nations. If there was no demand there would be no trade, so maybe "we" should share some of the blame? I would be interested to know how widespread salvery was in those countries you listed BEFORE they were islamicised. I have no idea, but I suspect slavery in those nations was widespread before the introduction of Islam to them, or at least before Islam became widespread - which would make placing the blame for all the slavery on Islam somewhat disingenuous.


1. "For the record, I've never defended unlawful acts by muslims on this forum nor will I."
You should understand that these are not unlawful acts. They are acts of war, legitimate and acceptable to Muslims. Koran says so. All non Muslims are guilty and are legitimate targets. School kids, women shopping, theatre goers - all legitimate targets. This is not crime or terrorism - it is Islamic war on the unbelievers.
You should also understand that there are more ways than one to defend an action. There is the direct justification and there is the diverting of focus as you do by bringing in some other people or matter. It boils down to the same thing.

2. "I do think that tarring them all with the same brush is stupid, just as stupid as hatred towards all Jews - because a bunch of them behave every bit as badly as radical muslims."
Is there a bunch of Jews behaving as badly as radical Muslims?
Reread my posts on the irrelevance and culpability of the peaceful majority please.

3. "Ever read the Talmud?"
As an ex Muslim I am already under sentence of death by Islam and I personally know a number of Muslims inside the peaceful majority who would happily kill me. One more death sentence from the Jews makes little to no difference to me.

4. "Also, as you pointed out, the destinations for the slaves are often western nations."
If the western nations were pure western - no non Europeans - I would agree. The fact is that there are millions of people in Europe who do not and will never share our culture and they are the ones for whom the slaves are destined. There have been several case of Arabs, Africans and Asians convicted of keeping slaves. I have seen one instance of travellers/gypsies keeping a slave.

5. "If there was no demand there would be no trade, so maybe "we" should share some of the blame?"
i note the quotation marks there but will say this anyway - the use of "we" again assumes a collective participation. Please re-read my post on Collective Guilt v Individual Intelligence. The assumption here is that we, the British, are keeping slaves as matter of routine. That's a terrible insult to all of us. What evidence do you have of that? Are we to blame for the actions of migrants who bring their culture with them?

6. " I would be interested to know how widespread salvery was in those countries you listed BEFORE they were islamicised."
There is no suggestion that I place the blame for all slavery on Islam. I quote my original post - "According to Wikipedia: Slavery in the Sudan pre-dates Islam,"
All peoples in all times have kept slaves - including here in England. The difference is that we have moved on and they still keep them legally, lawfully and in large numbers. We have had, for example, a religious reformation inside a religion that was already tolerant - love thy neighbour kind of thing - and our ethics have grown with our understanding of life and the rights of man. Islam is stultified and fixated on dark ages ethics and has a built in defence mechanism that destroys all who attempt to change it. Islam can never have a reformation. It cannot change.

7. Ask the peaceful Muslim majority if slavery is okay. They cannot say it isn't because Allah says it is; Mohammed says it is and to say otherwise is to deny God and the prophet and you get killed for making war on God.
Ask the peaceful Muslim majority if they will help stamp out slavery in Islam and see what they say.

8. The peaceful majority benefit every bit as much from acts of so-called terror as the so-called terrorists themselves in that they share the exact same goal - global Islam - and are merely following a different strategy and tactics. They love you no more than the killers do and want to see the last of us just as much as the killers do.The last Muslim so-called terrorist was yet another home grown one. He was born here, he lived among us for fifty two years and yet still hated us enough to murder in cold blood some innocent women and kids. Islam breeds evil even if not all Muslims go out and do it. Muslims are not the problem - Islam is the problem. Islam can only breed evil. I urge you to look at the last fourteen hundred years of history vis a vis Islam and the rest of us. Endless war - endless slaughter - endless slavery - endless oppression of women and non Muslims. Every generation of the peaceful majority breeds the violent minority who attack us.
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby Dreadlock » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:48 am

1. Unlawful according to English law. I couldn't give a toss about anyone else's law - I live in England. I do not divert focus, I draw parallels to show how ridiculous the original position is.
2. The Israeli government. Some of the Israeli people. I think the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians ranks with the worst behaviour of some Muslims.

3. No comment.

4. I concede that point. However it is the governments of the west that control western borders and as we have seen all too vividly recently, most western governments care nothing for preventing the influx of non Europeans - which brings us to 5.

5. I'm glad you noted the quotes, yet you proceeded to build a strawman and associate an assumption, that I did not make, with me. It's tricks like this which damage your credibility, at the expense of the valid points that you do make from time to time.

To answer the last question, which is the only one worthy of being answered, "Are we to blame for the actions of migrants who bring their culture with them?" The answer is yes, at least partly. Our governments supposedly represent us and they are entirely responsible for allowing the influx of immigrants. Likewise they are responsible for causing the mass movement of people from those countries and for the hatred that many muslims undoubtedly feel towards western nations - having been bombed by "us" for decades in one location or another. If the roles were reversed I'd be pretty pissed off too - wouldn't you?

If people would get off their fat arses and DO something about our terrible governments there would be no immigrant problem because:
A) "We" would have prevented our governments from turning Iraq, Libya and Syria into the basket-cases they are now.
B) The people of those nations would not be leaving their countries in vast numbers - they were 3 of the most well developed nations in the region.
C) Most of those people would not have a damn good reason to hate us.
D) We would not allow our government's terrible immigration policies.

I belive you have posted in the past about the unwillingness of the general popultion to take action... correct me if I'm mistaken. The complacent attitude of the western masses means that "we" must accept some responsibility for the current situation as "we" have given "our" tacit consent to it.

6. What they do in their own countries is their business. When they bring it here - that's a different story. The fact that slavery existed before Islam, in at least one country (and I suspect most or even all of them), just goes to show that Islam is not the problem. The problem is people.

7. Slavery under what circumstances? I'm fairly sure one man cannot simply overpower another, in Islam, and make him his slave. There are undoubtedly rules regarding the
enactment of slavery and I can imagine it might be a useful form of punishment in some circumstances. Again, what people do in their countries is, for the most part, their business.

8. I see. You are authorised to speak for all muslims, and one crazy man who happens to be muslim, is representative of all muslims. GREAT LOGIC!
"Endless war - endless slaughter - endless slavery - endless oppression of women..."
That quote reads to me like it could be a description of the general state of mankind over the past few thousand years.

" Every generation of the peaceful majority breeds the violent minority who attack us. "
I agree with the sentiment, though I would state it as:
" Every generation of the consenting majority encourages the violent minority who attack us - particularly those who do so in the guise of leadership."

One thing I've learned during my life is this. People are people no matter where in the world they live, or what labels they, or anyone else, attach to themselves.
Most people just wish to live in peace. A minority wish to spead their form of mumbo-jumbo to others and a yet smaller minority are fanatical nut-jobs who are willing
to kill for their mumbo-jumbo. Generalising, as you do with Islam, engenders unthinking hatred in the people you recently labeled as having "unexamined" lives. Is that your intent?
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby cassandra » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:49 am

Dread, the site is yours - or may as well be for all the others that don't post here. I'm offsky to Russky at lastsky. I may be gone some time - well, six months if the Gulag doesn't get me!
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby Dreadlock » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:36 pm

I'm almost jealous. No I am jealous. Have a vodka for me. :grin:
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby cassandra » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:40 pm

I just want to take you up on something before I go. This matter of Palestinian genocide, as you call it.

1. Jews were there a thousand years before the Muslims but they want you to believe that the Jews stole their land. (Pity the poor Muslim) They kill Jews, men, women and children without discrimination, and then plead for the pity of the world because the Jews kicked their arses for it. Let Islam abandon this projected genocide of all Jews - not to mention us as well - and I might feel sorry for Muslims in Palestine.

2. Muslims are invaders who genocided, as per their standard practise everywhere they went, the Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and others who were already living there in Palestine. You should know that every square inch of so called Muslim lands was taken by war and massacre. Every square inch. There is no such thing as a traditional Muslim homeland. Mohammed was homeless, driven out by the Meccans who knew him and his ideas, and given shelter by the Jews of Medina then slaughtered them when he had enough followers. He murdered the very people who helped him when his own people hunted him. He massacred, after a cruel deceit (al Taqiyya) the Meccans, and then hurled his murderous horde at the world.
Islam also practised a form of genocide unfamiliar to you, perhaps. In the invaded countries most of the men were killed and those who survived were castrated. The re-population was done by Muslim invaders breeding with captured local women. In this way many peoples were genocided out of existence, cultures were eradicated, languages died and Islam dominates there to this day.

3. The Koran states in no uncertain terms and in many chapters that every Jew is to be killed wherever they are. The stones will cry out, they say, that there is a Jew hiding behind it so the Muslim may find and kill him. You can find you tubes taken in Iran where the children are catechised on their hatred of the Jews. The genocide of the Jews is built into Islam and several Islamic governments declare publicly that this is their goal. The Iranian government wants all Jews to emigrate to Israel because it will save them the trouble of hunting them down later. Now, that being the case, would you care a toss about Palestinian Muslims, the descendants of invaders who follow a religion which demands the total eradication of you and your children from the book of life?
How about requiring the Muslims to stop it at the same time as criticising the Jews? It's unfair to tell just one side. Of course, the Koran obliges them to genocide so the chances are they wont listen and, depending what country you're in when you ask, they might even kill you for asking.

4. Muslims were attacking Jews long before the British Mandate in Palestine ended and the Jews took over. Muslims will continue to attack Jews long after the Palestine issue is settled totally in their favour and all Jews have left the place. If 99% of the world were Muslim and free of Jews, then the free one percent would be attacked. It is the nature of Islam and you cannot deny it. In Afghanistan today there is one Jew left living there. Just one Jew. The rest have been killed or fled the country.

5. For Israel – think of England. For Muslims – think of the Welsh. What do you imagine would happen if the Welsh were attacking England in exactly the same way as happens in Palestine?

That you continue to try to counter me by posting counter posts to what I write on Islam is an amazing thing to me. That anyone in their right mind who is not Muslim would even think of doing this is an astonishment to me. You are either a Muslim; someone who has not read the Koran and/or Islamic history and refuses to do so, or you are a programmed-for-idiocy madman. I lean to the first two but think the second more likely. It might be, of course, that you are so damaged by the programme that you really do think you're just being fair about everything. Fuck, I hope not.
Read the Koran, understand that it applies to you and then ask yourself why you would be an apologist for a religion and a people many of whom hate and despise you and want you dead as per divine command. That “many”, of course, being the violent minority who drive the agenda. The irrelevant peaceful majority have no interest in you or your survival and will not help you. Every non Muslim should understand that they are the enemy of Islam even if they don't know it, even if they do not want to be, even of they have never heard of Islam and even if they do sympathise with Islam and support it by apology if not by action.
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Re: Slave Talk

Postby Dreadlock » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:22 am

Damn cassandra/musashi, the lies and hypocrasy just keep on flowing don't they? I've never read so much rhetorical crap in one sitting before.

1.
Jews were there a thousand years before the Muslims but they want you to believe that the Jews stole their land. (Pity the poor Muslim)

Utter rubbish. Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham. Both lived in the region for millenia. Some arabs converted to Islam - they were still native.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
Notice the Jewish population from 1918 to 1948. What you see there is massive Jewish immigration to the region, paricularly after the end of WW2. That's right cassandra, the kind of immigration you constantly rail against (quite rightly too) happening in this country presently. The difference between the two of us is that I'm not a hypocrite. It's wrong for Europe to be flooded with muslims - it was equally wrong for Palestine to be flooded with Jews.

2.
Muslims are invaders who genocided, as per their standard practise everywhere they went, the Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and others who were already living there in Palestine.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-treatment-of-jews-in-arab-islamic-countries
Notice I'm quoting from a Jewish website. As it is undoubtedly biased against Islam, it serves my purpose of rebutting your rubbish extremely well.
While Jewish communities in Arab and Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs and Muslim.

In fact Muslims would protect Jews from the Christians as they were driven out of Christian lands, such as happened in Spain during the reign of Queen Isabella I.

3.
The Koran states in no uncertain terms and in many chapters that every Jew is to be killed wherever they are. The stones will cry out, they say, that there is a Jew hiding behind it so the Muslim may find and kill him.
What's that smell? It's bullshit... again from the same website as above
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.

Hardly genocide then...

3b.
The genocide of the Jews is built into Islam and several Islamic governments declare publicly that this is their goal. The Iranian government wants all Jews to emigrate to Israel because it will save them the trouble of hunting them down later.


Oh dear oh dear. At this point your credibility cassandra/musashi is simply ZERO.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/irans-jews-on-life-inside-israels-enemy-state-we-feel-secure-and-happy-a6934931.html
Some quotes from the article:
"The fact is, Iran is a place where Jews feel secure and we are happy to be here," he says. "We are proud to be Iranian. I know this doesn't follow the Zionist script, but this is the reality."

"The Israelis offer money to Jewish people to emigrate to Israel, but we choose to stay. My view is that the actions of Netanyahu and his government, the way they behave towards the Palestinians, cause problems for Jews everywhere. I am not the only one holding these views. Am I not allowed to say it because I am a Jew?


http://forward.com/news/319269/irans-jews-win-secure-place-in-mullahs-world-with-strings-attached/
Another article quoting Iranian Jews.
“Compared to Europe,” boasted Dr. Siamak Moreh Sedgh, the Jewish community’s elected representative in Iran’s parliament, “synagogues here are one of the safest places.” He also said proudly, “We have a high rate of people following Halacha,” or traditional Jewish law, “and a low rate of assimilation. The rate of intermarriage among Iranian Jews is less than 1%.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/12/israel.iran
And another...
Iran's Jews have given the country a loyalty pledge in the face of cash offers aimed at encouraging them to move to Israel, the arch-enemy of its Islamic rulers. The incentives — ranging from £5,000 a person to £30,000 for families — were offered from a special fund established by wealthy expatriate Jews in an effort to prompt a mass migration to Israel from among Iran's 25,000-strong Jewish community. The offers were made with Israel's official blessing and were additional to the usual state packages it provides to Jews emigrating from the diaspora.


However, the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale.
"The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradeable for any amount of money," the society said in a statement. "Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran's Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews."


I'm not going to bother answering the rest of your post cassandra/musashi. Interested readers won't have a hard time rebutting your lies and rhetoric.
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