Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

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Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:32 am

Just written this and going to mull it over before sending on Thursday:

NOTICE OF CLAIM FOR REFUND OF CHARGES
AMOUNT OF CLAIM: £2243.06

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for responding to my request for records, dated 14-November-2009. I did state a preference for a list of charges (rather than statements) so I was disappointed to receive some seventy three sheets of paper.

However, having now found the time to condense the diary of our affairs into a more appropriate form for my purposes, I have ascertained that between 1-April-2004 and today, 3-February-2010, I have had no less than £1855 taken from my account in the form of charges.

I request that you return all appropriated funds in respect of these charges and pay £388.06 of interest, calculated at 8% per annum on each individual charge.

You should be familiar with the legislation and codes so I won’t bore you by quoting them. Suffice it to say that I do not feel that you have dealt fairly with me as my financial circumstances have changed:

My difficulties began in late 2006 when I lost my job. I took a temporary, minimum wage job to attempt to pay the bills but was unable to. Charges began to mount up from Natwest, two credit cards, a loan provider and mobile telephone provider.

I found a better paying job, but was already struggling to pay back charges and minimum card payments. Balances kept climbing and charges kept coming.

Eventually, I sought help and started a Debt Management Plan with Payplan. This eased the situation somewhat and, keeping myself in gainful employment for over 2 years, I thought I was beginning to get back on track.

Then, at the end of March 2009, thanks largely to the global financial crisis caused by the ineptitude and greed of establishments like (and possibly including) yourselves, I was made redundant. With a partner and a fourteen month old daughter, I had to take up state benefits.

Presently, I am still unemployed and we rely on Housing Benefit, Council Tax Benefit and Tax Credits to pay for essentials. We have no social life to speak of and often struggle to either pay utility bills or buy food.

It is my considered opinion that these charges have exacerbated the situation considerably and made life for my family and I considerably less comfortable.

You are presently charging me interest in the sum of approximately £30 per month on my overdraft balance, which probably averages out to around £1700 overdrawn. You will note that the amount you have appropriated in charges exceeds (or at least matches) the amount of my overdraft and it would seem therefore that I am effectively paying interest on charges that have already been ‘paid’. Is this really fair?

In summary, the appropriation of my funds to pay these charges has previously exacerbated and continues to exacerbate my financial hardship and repayment of these charges would greatly ease this situation. I would be more than happy for my overdraft facility to be removed upon payment of this claim.

I look forward to your response within fourteen days. If you object please reply in substance, referencing the laws which support your objection. If you do not respond, or object without fully substantiating your position, then you will be taken to have given your tacit acceptance of this claim, upon which I shall claim my lawful right to permanent and irrevocable estoppel. I reserve my right to refer this matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service or small claims court should it become necessary.

Yours faithfully,

xxxx

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.


Any thoughts?

Chris

*EDITED TO INCORPORATE CHANGES MADE BEFORE SENDING AS SUGGESTED BY HR*
Last edited by cjwood555 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:44 pm

Thought I might include this along with it for kicks...

NOTICE: REMOVAL OF CONSENT TO APPROPRIATE FUNDS

Dear Sir or Madam,

Further to the enclosed Notice of Claim for Refund of Charges, I hereby revoke my consent for you to appropriate funds from my account in respect of any charges you may decide to make/levy on that account. All further charges must be presented in the form of an invoice/bill, fully compliant with the Bills of Exchange Act.

If you object to this change of terms please provide lawful proof of claim that:

1) Natwest Bank / Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc has lawful authority to appropriate funds not belonging to it; and
2) Natwest Bank / Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc are exempted from the requirements of the Bills of Exchange Act and that they are therefore not required to produce a compliant Bill for any charges levied; and
3) Appropriation of funds does not require the consent of the person to whom those funds belong or a court order.

You have seven (7) days to respond in substance. If you do not respond, or object without providing substantiated proof of claim then you will be taken to have given your tacit consent to this amendment to the terms of any and all agreements we may have, upon which I shall claim my lawful right to permanent and irrevocable estoppel.

Yours faithfully,


xxxxx

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.


*EDITED TO INCORPORATE CHANGES MADE BEFORE SENDING AS SUGGESTED BY HR*
Last edited by cjwood555 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby huntingross » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:52 pm

Hi cj

Firstly a good notice....but

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your intent here....you are seeking repayment of appropriated funds ?

It is your closing paragraph that is throwing me....

I look forward to your full and substantial response with fourteen days. If no substantial response is received then you will be taken to have given your tacit acceptance of this claim, upon which I shall claim my lawful right to permanent and irrevocable estoppel.


So their "full and substantial response" is the return of your money ??

So "no substantial response" would be them not returning your money to which you take that to mean tacit acceptance of your claim, which is the return of appropriated funds.....which they haven't done.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself adequately ?
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:38 pm

Hi Mark,

Good point. Perhaps if i rephrased it to:

I look forward to your response with fourteen days. If you object please substantiate your objection by referencing the laws which support your position. If you not respond, or object without substantiating your objection, then you will be taken to have given your tacit acceptance of this claim, upon which I shall claim my lawful right to permanent and irrevocable estoppel.


?

Any thoughts on the second notice? I'm using the phrase 'Right of Appropriation', because appropriating is what they are doing with fees, but the phrase 'right of appropriation' seems only to crop up from the consumers view point (and has been mentioned on this forum iirc). Perhaps that's because the banks have no right to appropriate. Also, perhaps I should change the word 'right' to 'consent' or 'permission' - after all, we object to government attempting to take away our rights so I shouldn't be doing it to the bank!

Thanks and regards,
Chris
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby huntingross » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:55 pm

Hi chris

I hadn't read your second notice as closely....but would comment:

Further to the enclosed Notice of Claim for Refund of Charges, please accept this Notice of Withdrawal of Right of Appropriation.

I hereby revoke my permission for you to appropriate funds from my account in respect of any charges you may decide to make/levy on that account. If you think you have any authority to do then be advised that my consent is withdrawn.


I would wrap it up like this

Further to the enclosed Notice of Claim for Refund of Charges I hereby revoke my consent for you to appropriate funds from my account in respect of any charges you may decide to make/levy on that account. If you think you have any authority to do then be advised that my consent is withdrawn.


I had a similar "put the bank in its position" notice to the Clydesdale where I added in a section stating "any consequence from this day forward as a direct or indirect result of this notice will be subject to a fee schedule etc etc".

Maybe you could dodge the removal of rights thing by calling it "Notice - Non Appropriation of Funds"......as you make it clear in the text that they are to cease taking money from your account.
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:35 pm

Thanks Mark, good shout. It's a notice not a request so why say 'please accept'?

I'm debating whether to send both at once, or whether the inclusion of the second notice is likely to irritate them such that they won't refund the charges. I think I shall wait for their response to the refund request before sending the second notice.

Regards,
Chris
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:39 pm

First notice has gone today :)

Chris
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby bernie » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:06 pm

we wait for the reply with baited breath.

good luck fella. i mean that.
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby cjwood555 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Thanks bernie - will keep the thread updated
Chris
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Re: Charges Reclaim Letter to Natwest

Postby Dipsy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:13 pm

I think you have two main choices to start. First always ask if they can ZERO interest and accept payment plan like 5 pounds a month based on your circumstances but make sure this is without prejudiced thus reserving all rights to consider further action. Sometime they will accept after dragging through the hoops and filling out budget planners etc. This is still better then going to court if you can do this as your account remains open and no credit markers on your account.

OR Put on notice ask them where you made a original contract wet ink, consideration of overdraft loan, first notice etc etc. It wont make any difference to them they will escalate charges and drag it out as this puts on more fees and more interest. You better make sure you have another account setup somewhere else and FAST! This is important because you will have one hell of a job opening a new account later. So either you are making amends and offer on your terms of zero interest and payment plan or make it clear you are not playing their games no more. In fact in the latter you want them to invoke court action as soon as they do this ALL FEES, INTEREST are frozen. Its important if you get a summons that you can show the court you have made an offer and requested to make a payment plan but they continued the controversy.

If you do get a CCJ at that point the account is basically abandoned they can't add on any more fees or interest as the judgment has settled the controversy. Given your circumstances you can apply to the court and pay 2 pound a month. Well that is basically forever so we wait until the art of discharging debt using Accepted for Value etc has been perfected. You could do this now but in the UK its a very immature process unlike the US which many people are having real success discharging tens of thousands dollars on CC loans etc. Please note there is a 30 day window to settle a CCJ before a CCJ is cast in stone or it last i think 6 years. So for smaller debts that you can afford pay it within 30 days and thats the end of it.

There is a final version you can apply if you get a summons and that is use the strawmans argument and that the debt is NOT you but your B.C. Some people get away with this but in most cases the court will just go ahead and issue a judgment in your absence.

As i said before don't get upset about CCJ's its NORMAL in these times half the country is in serious debt. Better to have an extra 50 quid in your pocket each week rather then been paying out on fees and interest charges. The banks know this which is why they really don't want to go to court because their little mafia collection cash cow cant get any more money out of you.
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