Buchenwald

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Re: Buchenwald

Postby ScotFree » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:38 pm

As I say I spent a year studing Auschwitz .........

another historic story which is closer to home and deserves exposure [though I havnt studied it]
is The Highland Clearances

http://www.theclearances.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Farmerboy » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:26 pm

The clearances are closer to home? Well closer to me are the enclosures that happened in England at about the same time. Check it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Briefly, England had lots of common land. Lots and lots of it. It was owned by the country and could be used in common - hang on, lets just refer it to common law...

Anyway, the powers that be decided to enclose what they wanted and one of the biggest families doing it were the Spencers. Spencers became Churchills, in an odd way... Funnily enough, the only privately owned palace in England, today, is owned by the Spencers and is on permanent loan to... Wait for it... The Rothschilds! Bottom of Pall Mall, backing onto Green Park.

Queen Caroline asked how much it would cost to enclose St. James's Park and Walpole, the then prime minister replied "Only a crown, madam..." Speaks volumes really.

Sir Thomas More wrote about the enclosures in 'Utopia', in 1516.

Anyway. Oliver Cromwell has gone astray. I thought that he would be adding much to this discussion.

Off to chop logs.

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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Phil: C » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:58 pm

huntingross wrote:For me, Britains finest hour was Dresden.....the account had a profound effect on me....and shocked me that I had only learned about it a few years ago, and only because I bothered to dig for the story.
It shocked me too. Butcher Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomber_Harris) was aptly named. I was in Dresden earlier this year and the central area is still not completely rebuilt.
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Sophia » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:23 pm

Sir Thomas More (7 February 1478 – 6 July 1535), also known as Saint Thomas More, was an English lawyer, scholar, author, and statesman. During his life he gained a reputation as a leading Renaissance humanist, a violent opponent of the Reformation of Martin Luther, and a government official. For the last six years of his life he was Lord Chancellor.
More coined the word "utopia" - a name he gave to the ideal, imaginary island nation whose political system he described in Utopia, published in 1516. An important counsellor to Henry VIII of England, he was imprisoned and executed by beheading in 1535 after he had fallen out of favor with the king over his refusal to sign the Act of Supremacy 1534, which declared the King the Supreme Head of the Church of England, effecting a final split with the Catholic Church in Rome. In 1980, More was added to the Church of England's calendar of saints, again jointly with John Fisher, but on July 6, the day of More's death.

Thomas More does not fit Officer Cromwell's anti catholic , anti europe, anti rome , anti jesuit, anti in general crusade :cry: :police:
Better think of someone else to champion sovreignty ..... Oliver Cromwell is such a wonderful historical example of just and decent man hood after all .... ethnic cleansing in Ireland, England,..... etc etc etc .... He terrorised england but that's ok because it was in a good cause, rather like our current terrorism laws, all in a good cause. As HR knows only too well, Ollie is only interested in English Common Law .... mmmm it's a hard life this agenda business .... :no:
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Farmerboy » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:27 am

Strange screen name to have - Oliver Cromwell. I did invite him back to this forum but he has decided to remain absent.

He should come back with his opinion because his reaction and then refusal to discuss the issue of the holocaust is what normally happens. Come on back ollie!

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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Sophia » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:11 am

Agendas are like black holes, they suck energy and funnel it to themselves ... do you really wanted to be drained ? :wink:
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Oliver Cromwell » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:01 pm

So the short answer to the question - EDIT - NO BODY ASKED THIS QUESTION. THIS POST IS ARGUMENTATIVE AND IRRELEVANT. THIS IS A FINAL WARNING.

'What happened to the millions of Jews, Gypsies and 'undesirables' of the death camps during the Nazi Period' ?

[Edit by Veronica: Actually someone did ask that question ... it was Ollie himself. The answer is that about 1 1/4 million Jews died of typhoid & starvation at the end of the war ... after the Allies cut the German supply lines. The 'Six Million' garbage came from an article in the New York Times or Wash Post ... written by the Mayor of New York back in the 1930s ... i.e. BEFORE WW2. (He was writing about something else).

You can add Hiroshima & Nagasaki to Dresden.

You can also add that there were Allied Death Camps (+ a torture centre in London) which had far worse conditions than German ones.

The so-called 'death camps' (Oh ... how they LOVE to use that evocative word) were actually Forced labour Camps - designed to up the capacity of the German War Machine. No point in a Forced Labour Camp if they've all been exterminated.

It was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to 'gas' that many people in the time scale. They would still be doing it today]


???????????????????????????????????????

A. They somehow disappeared and lost the power to write home

B. They never existed

C. They lost their lives

I know which I believe.

{Edit by Veronica: And you are welcome to your beliefs. Personally speaking I'd rather believe the Truth]
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby the_cat » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:33 am

I would add a "D" to Ollie's points above, but it's not necessary really as A, B and C were all perfectly reasonable. Of course history is "spun" to a great degree to suit people's agendas. and no doubt figures of deaths were increased to suit objectives (NAZIS BAD!!!! ALLIES GREAT!!! Grrrrrrr!)

It's true that people never talk about the Hiroshima bomb (which would account for the single largest piece of mass genocide in history?) and indeed I have often brought up in conversation the suffering and rape of German women at the end of the war when Berlin was "liberated" hat is also never discussed. However, holocaust denial is nonsense... oh, and I am an independent history graduate that lives in Munich (near Dachau). So, I guess think what you want, but for me ....... well, review Ollie's post (points A, B and C).
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Re: Buchenwald

Postby Farmerboy » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:35 pm

Sigh... :yawn:

The point of this thread was to raise peoples awareness. To get people to at least question what it is that they are being told. To question what they are being fed.

To this end, the example given - Buchenwald - is irrelevant. It is how we are fed information and how we receive it, that is important. The subject may be difficult for some people to deal with but that's life and life ain't fair.

When we defend our position, our beliefs, our religion or methodology, we are faced with that which we should question the most. The stronger the hold, the bigger the trap and the more you should question.

The PTB feed us stuff all day long. It is the questioning that is important. We few are the ones that should question - whilst we still can - what we are told.

To come to a community like this and to personally demand that these facts that we have been given are correct, that these beliefs are right, is idiocy and I can't understand why people do it. :cry: Some people don't even digest the preceeding post -they just use it as an excuse to vent their beliefs. Why do you do it? Surely the idea is to learn, to progress, to proceed, to move forwards. Not to defend ones stationary position. It - and you - become history.

Is it just me being mad and wasting my time? Is it my beliefs that are wrong? I don't know why I bother - these self imposed traps are the hardest to get out of.

I shall go and reflect on if its me or not.

Keep well you all.

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Re: Buchenwald

Postby gepisar » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:01 pm

Farmerboy wrote:Sigh... :yawn:

The point of this thread was to raise peoples awareness. To get people to at least question what it is that they are being told. To question what they are being fed.

Farmerboy


With that in mind, did you see panorama last night: "Hate on the doorstep". I dont think Ive ever seen such a disgraceful show of ineptitude and poor journalism.

Those kids would have taken the piss out of anyone who was different: wheelchair users, people on crutches, "tramps" - whatever.

I remember when I was a kid, I was subject to brick throwing, name calling, knife threats, its just kids with over active imagination. Sure, they need reeling in and telling off, maybe a clip round the ear. Im afraid to say, when you go looking for violence, racism, etc... you usually find it. I was appalled at the piss poor reporting and obvious agenda of the reporters. Sure racism is active in this country, in far more subtle and damaging ways than expressed in that so called "report". What made me laugh was when the 11 year old was threatening the reporter with a brick, she was apparently fearful Some random stranger shouts at the kid "OI, what you dong" and the kid legs it. That to me says something more about the reporter than anything else.

I BELIEVE (notice that a LIE is at the centre of every belief!) that England as a nation has been traditionally non-conformist. We are not a nation of church-going gardeners, which is the picture put out to the world. We're becoming softies obsessed by celebrity. I was fortunate to visit my parents this weekend and listen to some folk music i recall as a child. Songs about putting a motorway though my cabbage patch and "coats off for everyone". These were songs ABOUT the time. WTF do we have now? Brittnay effin spears "gimmie more", beyonce, "Diva is female version of a hustler". Heres a little vid that sums it up, believe it or not by an American!

http://www.youtube.com/v/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZAwZnNuhw&feature=sub


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZAwZnNuhw&feature=sub

We are starting to believe the hype! STOP IT.So yes, ask questions, and the better quality of question will yield a better answer.

V, I LOVE the little snippets you give away. Im from the 1970's baby boom, and by the time i got to school, history about WW2 had been re-written. The parentals had several disagreements with the crap that the school pushed out. Your forum-post interjections so concise and hard-lined, which i read to mean theres more to the story!

Farmer boy: Interesting point you raise. There are techniques to install beliefs. We can therefore chose to install in ourselves any beliefs we like. Therefore, it makes sense to install beliefs that are useful to us as that individual. BUT useful in what context - to what end, for what purpose? What is the purpose of belief? (Ok, going metaphysical now)

V, Truth. Oh boy. I usually elect not to talk about ww2, for several reasons. 1. If we all forgot guns ever existed, it might not occur to anyone to make one. 1b. If we forgot the war, we might forget to keep score. 2. Often times, myth is portrayed as fact and its just "their" spin to justify their beliefs and to stubbornly stick to outdated traits. 3. Im so ignorant of the subject, i dont know whether Im being told truth or lies. and 4. Its such a massive subject, with so many frames of reference and contexts, that any kind of attempt at justification seems unworthy. 5. Even though the facts and if we could, the truth, be told, what purpose would it serve? It seems to me that so many hold on to a story that suits them, because it identifies them (identity being linked with values and beliefs) that even faced with the irrefutable facts - they can not accept it without a change to their identity.

Remember though: WAR, both sides funded by a bank, with just enough given to the winner. And the banks expect the winner to assume the liability of the losers.

The truth is out there: but the truth has no meaning. Meaning is a judgement call according to available information and interpretation of an incomplete data set.
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